The horizon appears higher, and pilots in flatland sites are often taught to judge airspeed based on nose attitude on the horizon.
On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Richard Frawley <[email protected]> wrote: > I infer from this thread that the general view is that a pilot (perhaps > more so in low hours) has a higher potential to spin when thermalling or > attempting to thermal at less than 500' AGL than at higher altitudes. > > If so, why? What behaviours and responses are different? > > Richard > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 28 Dec 2014, at 11:59 am, [email protected] > wrote: > > > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training (stephenk) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 11:29:44 +1030 > > From: stephenk <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training > > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > > > And that is what is so annoying about this whole discussion. Only a > > little factual documentation* exists about the whole issue. Yes, I have > > seen a number of posts by the person you mentioned but dont recall/cant > > find one like that. Here's a post from the same person > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/JQvuWQYd-9k > > regarding the "rudder dropping off" a Puchacz, with later posters giving > > a link to an FAA report which purportedly confirms it. Except the link > > doesn't confirm it, no incident seems to exist in the FAA database now > > and another poster said they were from the club in question and the > > source of the story wasn't telling what really happened. > > > > It's happening in this thread too, Derek said he recalled 26 fatalities > > from Puchacz spin accidents and Bernard has talked about 26 fatal spin > > accidents. Meanwhile has anyone ever actually seen the original list > > which was being discussed in the mid 2000's? > > > > *And yet another example. Bernard recalls Mike Valentine calling the > > Puchacz a "widow maker". In my previous reply to Derek I almost made > > mention of _my_ recollections of what Mike V said. Strangely enough, I > > was at those instructor seminars which Bernard refers to, as from the > > late 80's till about 2000 I was CFI of Port Augusta gliding club. I do > > remember Mike V talking about the Puchacz and calling it an "honest > > aeroplane". ie in the sense that it behaved in a text book manner, if > > you mishandled it it would depart into "classic" spin behaviour and > > because it was heavy it would take a fair bit of space below to recover. > > Not saying Bernards recollection is entirely wrong either, we might be > > remembering two different parts of the same elephant. > > > > Regards > > SWK > > > > > >> On 28/12/2014 10:41 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: > >> I've never seen an official NTSB report on it but it was reported on > >> r.a.s. in a thread on Puch spinning after another Puch spin in > elsewhere. > >> IIRC it was Cindy Brickner who posted that information. R.a.s. Is > >> probably archived somewhere. > >> > >> > >> Note also we've had one near spin in by two level 3 instructors in > >> W.A., reported here by one of them And a Puch spin in at Narrogin by > >> an experienced instructor with student from low level thermalling. > >> > >> Maybe all the spin recovery training in the world is simply > >> ineffective when the aim is to prevent spinning in the first place. > >> Spinning is not a normal manoeuvre in soaring flight. > >> Spin prevention training doesn't seem to help much either, although > >> both are a good idea. Simulators may help but we have no information. > >> It seems possible that the real problem is that task prioritisation > >> has been incorrectly or not taught, including the ability to not get > >> distracted, focus on just one thing and forget all the others. It only > >> takes a few seconds. > >> As Alan Rundle once said "flying is easy, you can teach a monkey to > >> fly an aeroplane. It is the thinking that goes with it that is hard to > >> teach." > >> > >> Mike > >> On 27 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, stephenk <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >>> Mike, > >>> you've made this claim before. I assume it is another incident, not > >>> the Caracole one (because they weren't that high, nor were they ex > >>> test pilots) > >>> But I've never been able to find any other references to an accident > >>> like this and the NTSB database only seems to show up 4 Puchacz > >>> accidents in total > >>> > >>> EventId InvestigationType AccidentNumber EventDate Location > >>> Country Latitude Longitude AirportCode AirportName > >>> InjurySeverity AircraftDamage AircraftCategory > >>> RegistrationNumber Make Model > >>> 20040730X01116 Accident LAX04CA270 07/18/2004 Lone Pine, CA > >>> United States 36.588333 -118.051944 O26 Lone Pine > Non-Fatal > >>> Substantial > >>> N19SZ PDPS PZL-BIELSKO SZD-50-3 > >>> 20040406X00422 Accident FTW04LA103 04/04/2004 Cherry > Valley, AR > >>> United States 35.370834 -90.750556 > >>> > >>> Non-Fatal Substantial > >>> N18SZ PDPS PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 > >>> 20030605X00794 Accident LAX03LA165 05/26/2003 Minden, NV > United > >>> States 39.000278 -119.750833 MEV Minden-Tahoe Airport > >>> Non-Fatal Substantial > >>> N503HC PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 > >>> 20001211X10620 Accident LAX98FA235 07/17/1998 CALIFORNIA > CITY, > >>> CA United States > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Fatal(2) Destroyed > >>> N7215L PZL-Bielsko SZD 50-3 > >>> > >>> > >>> Do you have any other references? > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> SWK > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 27/12/2014 10:22 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: > >>>> Well one was two USAF test pilot school graduates from at least 3500 > >>>> feet AGL. > >>>> > >>>> Mike > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20141228/f9912baa/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 135, Issue 78 > > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >
_______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
