Another factor is the perceived acceleration and changes to turn radius/rate at low level if there is any wind about during a turn. The brain can see this and subconsciously try to keep the picture constant by tightening the turn or slowing down.
Sent from my iPhone > On 28 Dec 2014, at 12:53, Matthew Scutter <[email protected]> wrote: > > The horizon appears higher, and pilots in flatland sites are often taught to > judge airspeed based on nose attitude on the horizon. > >> On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Richard Frawley <[email protected]> wrote: >> I infer from this thread that the general view is that a pilot (perhaps more >> so in low hours) has a higher potential to spin when thermalling or >> attempting to thermal at less than 500' AGL than at higher altitudes. >> >> If so, why? What behaviours and responses are different? >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On 28 Dec 2014, at 11:59 am, [email protected] >> > wrote: >> > >> > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >> > [email protected] >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > [email protected] >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > [email protected] >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training (stephenk) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 11:29:44 +1030 >> > From: stephenk <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training >> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> > <[email protected]> >> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >> > >> > And that is what is so annoying about this whole discussion. Only a >> > little factual documentation* exists about the whole issue. Yes, I have >> > seen a number of posts by the person you mentioned but dont recall/cant >> > find one like that. Here's a post from the same person >> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/JQvuWQYd-9k >> > regarding the "rudder dropping off" a Puchacz, with later posters giving >> > a link to an FAA report which purportedly confirms it. Except the link >> > doesn't confirm it, no incident seems to exist in the FAA database now >> > and another poster said they were from the club in question and the >> > source of the story wasn't telling what really happened. >> > >> > It's happening in this thread too, Derek said he recalled 26 fatalities >> > from Puchacz spin accidents and Bernard has talked about 26 fatal spin >> > accidents. Meanwhile has anyone ever actually seen the original list >> > which was being discussed in the mid 2000's? >> > >> > *And yet another example. Bernard recalls Mike Valentine calling the >> > Puchacz a "widow maker". In my previous reply to Derek I almost made >> > mention of _my_ recollections of what Mike V said. Strangely enough, I >> > was at those instructor seminars which Bernard refers to, as from the >> > late 80's till about 2000 I was CFI of Port Augusta gliding club. I do >> > remember Mike V talking about the Puchacz and calling it an "honest >> > aeroplane". ie in the sense that it behaved in a text book manner, if >> > you mishandled it it would depart into "classic" spin behaviour and >> > because it was heavy it would take a fair bit of space below to recover. >> > Not saying Bernards recollection is entirely wrong either, we might be >> > remembering two different parts of the same elephant. >> > >> > Regards >> > SWK >> > >> > >> >> On 28/12/2014 10:41 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: >> >> I've never seen an official NTSB report on it but it was reported on >> >> r.a.s. in a thread on Puch spinning after another Puch spin in elsewhere. >> >> IIRC it was Cindy Brickner who posted that information. R.a.s. Is >> >> probably archived somewhere. >> >> >> >> >> >> Note also we've had one near spin in by two level 3 instructors in >> >> W.A., reported here by one of them And a Puch spin in at Narrogin by >> >> an experienced instructor with student from low level thermalling. >> >> >> >> Maybe all the spin recovery training in the world is simply >> >> ineffective when the aim is to prevent spinning in the first place. >> >> Spinning is not a normal manoeuvre in soaring flight. >> >> Spin prevention training doesn't seem to help much either, although >> >> both are a good idea. Simulators may help but we have no information. >> >> It seems possible that the real problem is that task prioritisation >> >> has been incorrectly or not taught, including the ability to not get >> >> distracted, focus on just one thing and forget all the others. It only >> >> takes a few seconds. >> >> As Alan Rundle once said "flying is easy, you can teach a monkey to >> >> fly an aeroplane. It is the thinking that goes with it that is hard to >> >> teach." >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> On 27 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, stephenk <[email protected] >> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Mike, >> >>> you've made this claim before. I assume it is another incident, not >> >>> the Caracole one (because they weren't that high, nor were they ex >> >>> test pilots) >> >>> But I've never been able to find any other references to an accident >> >>> like this and the NTSB database only seems to show up 4 Puchacz >> >>> accidents in total >> >>> >> >>> EventId InvestigationType AccidentNumber EventDate Location >> >>> Country Latitude Longitude AirportCode AirportName >> >>> InjurySeverity AircraftDamage AircraftCategory >> >>> RegistrationNumber Make Model >> >>> 20040730X01116 Accident LAX04CA270 07/18/2004 Lone Pine, CA >> >>> United States 36.588333 -118.051944 O26 Lone Pine >> >>> Non-Fatal >> >>> Substantial >> >>> N19SZ PDPS PZL-BIELSKO SZD-50-3 >> >>> 20040406X00422 Accident FTW04LA103 04/04/2004 Cherry Valley, >> >>> AR >> >>> United States 35.370834 -90.750556 >> >>> >> >>> Non-Fatal Substantial >> >>> N18SZ PDPS PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 >> >>> 20030605X00794 Accident LAX03LA165 05/26/2003 Minden, NV >> >>> United >> >>> States 39.000278 -119.750833 MEV Minden-Tahoe Airport >> >>> Non-Fatal Substantial >> >>> N503HC PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 >> >>> 20001211X10620 Accident LAX98FA235 07/17/1998 CALIFORNIA >> >>> CITY, >> >>> CA United States >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Fatal(2) Destroyed >> >>> N7215L PZL-Bielsko SZD 50-3 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Do you have any other references? >> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> SWK >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On 27/12/2014 10:22 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: >> >>>> Well one was two USAF test pilot school graduates from at least 3500 >> >>>> feet AGL. >> >>>> >> >>>> Mike >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: >> > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20141228/f9912baa/attachment.html> >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Aus-soaring mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> > >> > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 135, Issue 78 >> > ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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