Hi All,Just to add to Laurie Simpkin's post....
We have operated a Dimona motor glider out of Camden for the last 14 years and
have not adopted use of FLARM for totally different operational reasons to that
of Laurie's.Camden for those that don't know it is a Class D control zone on
Sydney's SW outskirts with three gliding clubs and dozens of private operators
as well as significant GA, prop and jet warbirds, rotary wing training and
aerial bush fire fighting in season.Almost all of our flights are touring
flights carried out under a combination of power and glide and often with
soaring. A large portion (80-90%) of each flight is carried out between
30-100km from Camden and over the rugged Blue Mts, or over the coast, where
very little gliding takes place.Under these very low gliding density conditions
we determined that the head in cockpit disadvantage of FLARM doesn't outweigh
any advantage, for OUR situation.There are numerous other strategies,
especially for touring motor gliders, that can make both lookout and your own
visibility much more effective.Laurie Hoffman
From: Laurie Simpkins <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, 16 March 2015, 23:34
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Flarm Update
<!--#yiv3036059280 .yiv3036059280hmmessage
P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv3036059280
body.yiv3036059280hmmessage{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}-->Hi,
Just attempted to updated my Swiss Flarm this weekend and turned it into an
expensive paperweight. Fortunately two well known members of WGC ( thanks
again) pooled their combined knowledge and many hours later it became a semi
useful part of the airframe again. Was about to scrap all electronics and
install my cosim vario and make my own beeping noises???
It will be a sad day IMHO when we mandate any form of electronic device for all
gliders as standard equipment. I appreciate their use for gliders and tugs ( I
used to tow ) in comps etc but as the owner of some vintage gliders ( including
my open cirrus) i challenge their relevance in all parts of our sport.
I still believe we could help ourselves more by encouraging more anti
collision marking ( read all the arguments) and keeping our heads out of the
cockpit where they belong.
Before you crucify me ( as happens occasionally here) please justify your
comments with why you think i need a Flarm or equivalent in a vintage or
training aircraft mostly operating in the CTAF. Soon we will be asked these
questions as a body and i hope we answer wisely.
I say again i support and understand the relevance in a comp situation for
devices likes Flarms however we will need to make future decisions and rules
for all the gliding community.
Currently i probably couldn't operate at some local clubs due to an insistence
an Flarms for all aircraft???????????
cheers
Laurie
GMO,GDW,GEF,GHJ,GTG
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 138, Issue 25
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:22:52 +1030
>
> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [email protected]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [email protected]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FLARM update (Mike Borgelt)
> 2. Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Erich Wittstock)
> 3. Re: Easter Comp 2015 cancelled (Ian Downes)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:47:29 +1000
> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM update
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> As a standalone device a Flarm is merely an expensive GPS data source.
>
> Flarm is a *system* and requires other devices
> and compatibility between devices to function.
> The usefulness also degrades rapidly as the
> proportion of potential targets either is not
> equipped or the unit isn't working or is non compatible.
>
> Analogies with parachutes aren't useful. There
> are many parachute manufacturers and I'm not
> aware that licence fees are being paid by the
> others to one manufacturer and while there may
> be airworthiness directives from time to time on a particular brand or type of
>
> parachute there aren't potential fleet wide problems every year.
>
> Not a problem until use is mandated as in contests or some clubs.
>
> The serious parts of aviation seem to go to lots
> of trouble to maintain backwards compatibility.
> i.e. continuing use of pressure altitude instead
> of GPS altitude, Mode A transponders are
> compatible with Mode C and mode S and ADSB co-exists with these on the same
>
> frequencies. Except in the USA where the
> potential congestion means they have gone to
> 978Mhz for ADSB for small aircraft and maintained
> the Extended squitter transponder 1090 Mhz use
> for large aircraft. That means ground stations
> and being in range of one for the two
>
> sets of users to know about each other. Wonderful!
>
> TCAS as used in airliners also has the feature
> that the system logic is known to the users and users are trained in it.
>
> A couple of years ago I analysed a mid air
> between two gliders in Austria. Both Flarm
> equipped and both Flarms were working. The pilots
> frantically scanned and still failed to see each
> other whereupon one turned left - right across
> the other glider's flightpath and the
>
> collision occurred. Otherwise they'd have missed.
> Fortunately both managed to land safely.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:56 AM 16/03/2015, you wrote:
> >Hi Tim,
> >As you have reminded many in the past, - this is
> >a Gliding Forum. Keep the politics and political comments out of it.
> >Glenn
> >
> >
> >On 14/03/2015 8:32 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:
> >>Hi all,
> >>
> >>Flarms are standalone devices. They won't stop
> >>working tomorrow, because there is nothing to
> >>stop them working. A Flarm on V5 will see a
> >>Flarm on V5 just the same for ever, so it is
> >>probably better for the upgrade at a club, or
> >>in an area where gliders often fly together, to
> >>be co-ordinated. Making an instant change to
> >>your own Flarm might simply disable yours :)
> >>
> >>Flarm is being 100% consistent in its policy,
> >>and if that is irresponsible well then more
> >>irresponsibility from Tony Abbott would be good
> >>(if that is possible). They have NEVER
> >>guaranteed that a major version upgrade is
> >>backward compatible, in fact they have always
> >>said that any backward compatibility between
> >>major versions is coincidental. I make no
> >>comment on the reasons or the necessity for this policy.
> >>
> >>There's nothing wrong with a Flarm, except for
> >>the far too high expectations we have of it.
> >>
> >>Just look out the window - no version changes
> >>required but make sure your specs are up to spec.
> >>
> >>Cheers
> >>
> >>Tim Shirley
> >>
> >>tra dire ? fare c' ? mezzo il mare
> >>On 14/03/2015 6:54 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:
> >>>FYI:
> >>>FLARM has now published it's latest update - v6.
> >>>It's available here:
> >>><http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/>http://flarm.com/support/firmware-updates/
> >>>
> >>>The protocols in the current version (v5) and
> >>>new version (v6) are supposedly totally
> >>>incompatible, so please update your FLARMs
> >>>before next flight or you won't be able to see pilots with the other
> >>>version.
> >>>
> >>><soapbox opinion> I think it's very
> >>>irresponsible of FLARM to publish a backwards
> >>>incompatible upgrade like this. I am glad I am
> >>>not flying in the Alps this weekend. </opinion>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Aus-soaring mailing list
> >>><mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
> >>>To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >>><http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Aus-soaring mailing list
> >><mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
> >>To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >><http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Aus-soaring mailing list
> >[email protected]
> >To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of
> quality soaring instrumentation since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150316/97c4f1e8/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:19:16 +1100
> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Easter Comp 2015 cancelled
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <caph3ingu9naf3qd9syosnusgocnb6z6dzxvcxnu_2bjsm0n...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Regretfully the decision has been made to cancel this years Easter
> Competition that was to be held at Goondiwindi. The principal reason was
> a lack of competitors. There were not sufficient entrants to justify the
> commitment of the organisers, it was a risk financially and the small
> numbers in the classes gave little competition.
>
> It is unfortunate however we felt it better to cancel rather than try to
> run a sub-standard event. We will commence planning in a couple of months
> for Easter 2016. Watch for our announcements.
>
> For those who have made the commitment to go to Goondiwindi this year all
> is not totally lost for you. Warwick Club intend to fly all week and
> offer non-competitive scored soaring for those interested. If you are
> interested contact Warwick club www.warwickgliding.org.au
>
>
>
> Lindsay Mitchell
> President
> Queensland Gliding Assoc. Inc.
> 0419 280 811
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150316/770436f8/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:52:43 +1100
> From: "Ian Downes" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easter Comp 2015 cancelled
> To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
> <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Good evening all
>
>
>
> Sorry to hear about the need to cancel this years event at Goondiwindi.
>
>
>
> As well as our friends at Warwick, Lake Keepit is also operating over the
> Easter break as part of our full time operation.
>
>
>
> Whilst accommodation at the club and the adjoining caravan park is pretty
> tight, we do have plenty of camping spots available.
>
>
>
> If you can't make Warwick we would love to see you at Keepit.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Ian Downes.
>
> Lake Keepit Soaring Club
>
>
>
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Erich
> Wittstock
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 7:19 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Easter Comp 2015 cancelled
>
>
>
> Regretfully the decision has been made to cancel this years Easter
> Competition that was to be held at Goondiwindi. The principal reason was a
> lack of competitors. There were not sufficient entrants to justify the
> commitment of the organisers, it was a risk financially and the small numbers
> in the classes gave little competition.
>
>
>
> It is unfortunate however we felt it better to cancel rather than try to run
> a sub-standard event. We will commence planning in a couple of months for
> Easter 2016. Watch for our announcements.
>
>
>
> For those who have made the commitment to go to Goondiwindi this year all is
> not totally lost for you. Warwick Club intend to fly all week and offer
> non-competitive scored soaring for those interested. If you are interested
> contact Warwick club www.warwickgliding.org.au
> <http://www.warwickgliding.org.au/>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lindsay Mitchell
> President
> Queensland Gliding Assoc. Inc.
>
> 0419 280 811 <tel:0419%20280%20811>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150316/28148f67/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 138, Issue 25
> ********************************************
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
