OK, maybe if "Matt's" nephew is still on this list, he can say something and we can stop playing this game of "Matt."
Too bad no one remembers the lady from America who came looking for family :( Rats. Get the Y-DNA test that fits your budget. The more markers, and providing that the Genetic Distance isn't much, the better. There's nothing wrong with starting out with 37 and upgrading later as the budget allows. For a 37 marker match, I'm finding that the Genetic Distance (GD) needs to be 0,1,2, for a Y67, the GD (Genetic Distance) needs to be 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4. I don't have a whole lot of people at Y111 who have figured it out, but my guess would be that they need a GD of 0-5. (There aren't as many "fast moving" markers in that final panel for me to say the GD could be 0-6. Yet. As more people take Y-DNA testing and figure out the matches, then I can say with more confidence what the GD should be). Try for a brother-in-law (cunhado) first. You may be able to talk them into Family Finder later. More data to play with. Cheri Cheri Mello Listowner, Azores-Gen Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:34 PM <bsei2...@gmail.com> wrote: > Wow! Cheri there is so much information in your answer but presented so > well that even I can get it. Thank you so much. > > I actually did an archive search and found that Matt's nephew joined this > group before I did and posted this in May 2012: > > *Francis Joseph was born in 1833, some where in the Azores. His Father > was carpenter named Antonio. We don’t know the name of his Mother. > Francis left the Azores as a young boy and* > *spent some years on whaling ships before “jumping ship” in New Zealand. > He was then 34 years old and spent the next 50 years living here. He never > became a naturalised citizen of New Zealand. In 1883, at the age of 50 > years he married an English woman in New Plymouth, Taranaki, New Zealand > and they had 3 children. Francis died there in August 1917 aged 84 years. > We do not know which island he came from and if anyone in the room has any > connection or knowledge of him or his family I’d be very grateful to hear > from you. He is my Gt Grandfather.* > *My Uncle who knows less than I do told me that about 30 years ago a lady > from America came looking for our family. Perhaps we have some American > relatives?* > > So in 2012 he was from "somewhere in the Azores". Based on the common > matches I think Graciosa is much more likely. There are several matches > that specifically list Praia, Graciosa. One of the common matches I have > confirmed descends from Francisco's father Antonio Jose Cordeiro, but from > his second wife (not Francisco's mother). > > I did notice that Matt did YDNA testing. If I can get one of my > brothers-in-law to do DNA testing which would be the appropriate test? My > brothers-in-law and their sons are also direct male descendants of > Francisco Jose. > > Thanks again. > Bill > > > On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 5:46:27 PM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote: >> >> Hi Bill (and those following along), >> >> I can answer with some specifics and not reveal the Match's name (who >> will now be called Matt for Match). >> >> Bill thinks that Matt may be a half 1C2R. (Say, you and your 1st cousin >> are cousins because of Grandma and Grandpa Silva. That's a 1C (1st Cousin). >> If you were a HALF 1C, then you come from one ancestor only (let's say >> Grandpa) because he married twice - one of you would come from one spouse >> and the other would come from the other spouse. That's how you get a 1/2 >> cousin. Which doesn't matter in the real world, but it does with the DNA >> numbers). >> >> So the shared centiMorgans (cMs - a genetic unit of measure) with Matt is >> 108 cMs with the longest block being 47 cMs! That's a really good block! >> >> From the DNA Geek's Probability chart, on the DNA Painter website: >> https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4 >> >> >> [image: image.png] >> There's lots of "half" probabilities going on up there in that chart. >> >> Now for the longest block, from The Shared CentiMorgan Project: >> https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/2015/06/01/the-shared-cm-project-longest-shared-segment/ >> [image: image.png] >> >> Blaine Bettinger doesn't have the statistics on a Half 1C2R. On average, >> it would be a little less, but would be within range. (Blaine gets these >> stats by people submitting them to him and he publishes these charts for us >> to use). >> >> Matt is the grandson of the ancestor in question. He's done a Y-DNA test >> as well (you click on the + at the far right (which turns into a minus) and >> you can see all the tests taken: >> [image: image.png] >> >> So does your wife have a male in her family (her brother, uncle, nephew, >> or male cousin) who has this line as their Y-DNA line? Matt's YDNA matches >> are just outside the genealogy time period, I think. >> >> I think you need to trace ALL the descendants of the ancestor in question >> all the way forward, as much as you can. And you need to find out why Matt >> is saying your possible common ancestor is from Sao Miguel. Your "In Common >> With" matches to Matt are all over the place. There's lots of Graciosa, >> some Sao Jorge, Pico, Flores, so as I said, it's all over the place. But NO >> Sao Miguel. I kinda think Matt may be mistaken with him thinking his >> ancestor is from Sao Miguel. You'll have to ask him why he thinks that. >> >> The matching segments (there's a block of 11 cM on Chr.1 as well): >> [image: image.png] >> Now Matt, his nephew, and your wife: >> [image: image.png] >> >> Chr. 13 is looking good, but now Chr. 9 is a problem. You'll have to work >> on that one later. >> >> I think you are on the right track. You'll need to DNA test a few more >> people though. FTDNA may have a sale on Y-DNA around Father's Day in >> America, which is mid-June (for those in the reading audience outside of >> America). And trace forward as much as you can. >> >> Hope this gives you more information to ponder. Or make your head >> explode. LOL >> Cheri Mello >> Listowner, Azores-Gen >> Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, >> Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:46 PM <bsei...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thank you Cheri; I sent an email with my wife's kit# and the names of >>> the matches of interest. I also sent an email to ask if they are >>> registered in the Azores DNA project. >>> >>> I understand that I cannot prove they are the same person. All I can do >>> is attempt to disprove it. I have accounted for the two kids mentioned in >>> Maria Isabel's obit. One was born in 1849 on Graciosa and the other in >>> 1854 on Sao Jorge. The first immigrated around 1869 and died in Sacramento >>> CA in 1923. The second is my wife's great grandfather who raised a family >>> on Sao Jorge and died in Urzelina in 1926. She also had a child in 1852 >>> but that one died in infancy. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 10:10:01 AM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> Email me offlist with your wife's kit number and the name of her DNA >>>> match. OR screen shot the match and block out the name of the match. OR >>>> contact the match and ask permission to post their name and picture, but be >>>> sure to explain to them that you are removing their name and picture from >>>> the security of the FTDNA web site and are posting it on the the World Wide >>>> Web and anyone with Internet access will be able to find out that they have >>>> DNA tested. Be sure that they understand that by your action, they cannot >>>> hold anyone else liable for the knowledge that they DNA tested is out >>>> there. And then send me that permission to post his/her name and picture. >>>> >>>> It's hard to help the Austrialians and New Zealanders in that time >>>> period. I don't know what resources they have for that time period. >>>> >>>> Instead of trying to prove that is guy is the match's guy, prove that >>>> he's not. Maria dies first (her obit does NOT say he's "ausente") so look >>>> for his death in that parish. Maria's obit also says she left 2 children. >>>> You need to reconcile that as well. I'd look for children of Maria and >>>> this Francisco for 5 years after Oct 1855 just to be really sure. And be >>>> really sure that you don't have 2 Francisco Joses married to 2 Maria >>>> Isabels in that same freguesia. I would think it would be very difficult to >>>> lie on a confession roll as well. The priest would find out. >>>> >>>> Cheri Mello >>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen >>>> Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira >>>> Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:34 AM <bsei...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is just a shot in the dark looking for any help. My wife has a >>>>> close DNA match in New Zealand. He is the grandson of Francis Joseph. A >>>>> mariner that jumped ship in New Zealand in the 1860s, reported that he was >>>>> widowed when he married in New Zealand in the 1880s, was from the Azores >>>>> and had a father named Antonio that was a carpenter. Francis Joseph did >>>>> work as a cooper for his company in New Zealand. I got this information >>>>> from member of this list who is also a DNA match to my wife and a nephew >>>>> of >>>>> the closer match. We are studying the possibility that Francisco Jose >>>>> Cordeiro and Francis Joseph might be the same person hoping to prove or >>>>> disprove it. >>>>> >>>>> Their names and ages roughly line up. I do not know if Francisco's >>>>> father Antonio was a carpenter on Graciosa, but his son and grandson were >>>>> both carpenters. There is a Francis Joseph listed as a cooper on the >>>>> Whaling Ship Seconet on a voyage from 1955 to 1860 (a carpenter could >>>>> easily be a cooper) but unfortunately the database does not give an age or >>>>> home. This vessel did go to the South Pacific. >>>>> >>>>> I am trying to trace Francisco Jose Cordeiro and looking for any >>>>> insight. I am especially trying to figure out if he could have been >>>>> absent >>>>> from the Azores from mid/late 1860s and on in spite of his wife's obit >>>>> saying they are still married. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here is his baptism in 1828 in Sao Mateus da Praia, Graciosa >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833_item1/P30.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his marriage on Sao Miguel Island in July 1849: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854_item1/P121.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his son Manuel's baptism in his home parish on Graciosa 5 >>>>> months later: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855_item1/P179.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his second son Joao's baptism in Urzelina, Sao Jorge in 1852 >>>>> (Note that Urzelina is where his wife lived the two years prior to >>>>> marriage >>>>> according to her marriage): >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P82.html >>>>> >>>>> That son died after just 40 days: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858_item1/P41.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his 3d son (second named Joao) baptism in Oct 1855 (note: he >>>>> was born Jun 1854, about 15 months prior) >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860_item1/P14.html >>>>> >>>>> This marriage lists Francisco Jose Cordeiro as father of the groom and >>>>> is a carpenter in 1882: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889_item1/P24.html >>>>> >>>>> This obit says Maria Isabel is "casada com Francisco Jose Cordeiro" in >>>>> 1901 >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911_item1/P14.html >>>>> >>>>> The only Urzelina confessional roll available for the time in question >>>>> is 1888. It does not list Francisco Jose Cordeiro. His son Joao Baptista >>>>> Cordeiro is listed there along with his wife and their first two kids. >>>>> Also listed in the house is a Maria Jose, mother, widow, 76 years old. I >>>>> am thinking this could be Joao's mother (Francisco Jose Cordeiro's wife) >>>>> but her name is Maria Isabel and she would be only 69 years old. It doubt >>>>> it could be Joao's mother-in-law because her name was Rosa Ignacia and she >>>>> was never married. Francisco's son Manuel went to California as a young >>>>> man (about 1869) and raised a family in Sacramento under the name Manuel >>>>> Jose Lamb. I can't find his immigration that might help figure out if his >>>>> family were on Graciosa or Sao Jorge at the time of his departure. The >>>>> only other son (just to confirm his mother's obit said she left 2 kids) >>>>> stayed on Sao Jorge and had four kids, one of whom is my wife's >>>>> grandfather >>>>> Joao Batista Cordeiro Jr. >>>>> >>>>> I applaud anyone that takes the time to read through this mess and >>>>> look forward to any comments >>>>> >>>>> Bill Seidler >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores. >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores. >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Azores Genealogy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. 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