Hi, I am a direct ancestor of Francisco and can fill in a lot of the blanks, as well as photos etc
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 20:34:48 UTC-5, [email protected] wrote: > > Wow! Cheri there is so much information in your answer but presented so > well that even I can get it. Thank you so much. > > I actually did an archive search and found that Matt's nephew joined this > group before I did and posted this in May 2012: > > *Francis Joseph was born in 1833, some where in the Azores. His Father > was carpenter named Antonio. We don’t know the name of his Mother. > Francis left the Azores as a young boy and* > *spent some years on whaling ships before “jumping ship” in New Zealand. > He was then 34 years old and spent the next 50 years living here. He never > became a naturalised citizen of New Zealand. In 1883, at the age of 50 > years he married an English woman in New Plymouth, Taranaki, New Zealand > and they had 3 children. Francis died there in August 1917 aged 84 years. > We do not know which island he came from and if anyone in the room has any > connection or knowledge of him or his family I’d be very grateful to hear > from you. He is my Gt Grandfather.* > *My Uncle who knows less than I do told me that about 30 years ago a lady > from America came looking for our family. Perhaps we have some American > relatives?* > > So in 2012 he was from "somewhere in the Azores". Based on the common > matches I think Graciosa is much more likely. There are several matches > that specifically list Praia, Graciosa. One of the common matches I have > confirmed descends from Francisco's father Antonio Jose Cordeiro, but from > his second wife (not Francisco's mother). > > I did notice that Matt did YDNA testing. If I can get one of my > brothers-in-law to do DNA testing which would be the appropriate test? My > brothers-in-law and their sons are also direct male descendants of > Francisco Jose. > > Thanks again. > Bill > > > On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 5:46:27 PM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote: >> >> Hi Bill (and those following along), >> >> I can answer with some specifics and not reveal the Match's name (who >> will now be called Matt for Match). >> >> Bill thinks that Matt may be a half 1C2R. (Say, you and your 1st cousin >> are cousins because of Grandma and Grandpa Silva. That's a 1C (1st Cousin). >> If you were a HALF 1C, then you come from one ancestor only (let's say >> Grandpa) because he married twice - one of you would come from one spouse >> and the other would come from the other spouse. That's how you get a 1/2 >> cousin. Which doesn't matter in the real world, but it does with the DNA >> numbers). >> >> So the shared centiMorgans (cMs - a genetic unit of measure) with Matt is >> 108 cMs with the longest block being 47 cMs! That's a really good block! >> >> From the DNA Geek's Probability chart, on the DNA Painter website: >> https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4 >> >> >> [image: image.png] >> There's lots of "half" probabilities going on up there in that chart. >> >> Now for the longest block, from The Shared CentiMorgan Project: >> https://thegeneticgenealogist.com/2015/06/01/the-shared-cm-project-longest-shared-segment/ >> [image: image.png] >> >> Blaine Bettinger doesn't have the statistics on a Half 1C2R. On average, >> it would be a little less, but would be within range. (Blaine gets these >> stats by people submitting them to him and he publishes these charts for us >> to use). >> >> Matt is the grandson of the ancestor in question. He's done a Y-DNA test >> as well (you click on the + at the far right (which turns into a minus) and >> you can see all the tests taken: >> [image: image.png] >> >> So does your wife have a male in her family (her brother, uncle, nephew, >> or male cousin) who has this line as their Y-DNA line? Matt's YDNA matches >> are just outside the genealogy time period, I think. >> >> I think you need to trace ALL the descendants of the ancestor in question >> all the way forward, as much as you can. And you need to find out why Matt >> is saying your possible common ancestor is from Sao Miguel. Your "In Common >> With" matches to Matt are all over the place. There's lots of Graciosa, >> some Sao Jorge, Pico, Flores, so as I said, it's all over the place. But NO >> Sao Miguel. I kinda think Matt may be mistaken with him thinking his >> ancestor is from Sao Miguel. You'll have to ask him why he thinks that. >> >> The matching segments (there's a block of 11 cM on Chr.1 as well): >> [image: image.png] >> Now Matt, his nephew, and your wife: >> [image: image.png] >> >> Chr. 13 is looking good, but now Chr. 9 is a problem. You'll have to work >> on that one later. >> >> I think you are on the right track. You'll need to DNA test a few more >> people though. FTDNA may have a sale on Y-DNA around Father's Day in >> America, which is mid-June (for those in the reading audience outside of >> America). And trace forward as much as you can. >> >> Hope this gives you more information to ponder. Or make your head >> explode. LOL >> Cheri Mello >> Listowner, Azores-Gen >> Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, >> Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:46 PM <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Thank you Cheri; I sent an email with my wife's kit# and the names of >>> the matches of interest. I also sent an email to ask if they are >>> registered in the Azores DNA project. >>> >>> I understand that I cannot prove they are the same person. All I can do >>> is attempt to disprove it. I have accounted for the two kids mentioned in >>> Maria Isabel's obit. One was born in 1849 on Graciosa and the other in >>> 1854 on Sao Jorge. The first immigrated around 1869 and died in Sacramento >>> CA in 1923. The second is my wife's great grandfather who raised a family >>> on Sao Jorge and died in Urzelina in 1926. She also had a child in 1852 >>> but that one died in infancy. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 10:10:01 AM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> Email me offlist with your wife's kit number and the name of her DNA >>>> match. OR screen shot the match and block out the name of the match. OR >>>> contact the match and ask permission to post their name and picture, but >>>> be >>>> sure to explain to them that you are removing their name and picture from >>>> the security of the FTDNA web site and are posting it on the the World >>>> Wide >>>> Web and anyone with Internet access will be able to find out that they >>>> have >>>> DNA tested. Be sure that they understand that by your action, they cannot >>>> hold anyone else liable for the knowledge that they DNA tested is out >>>> there. And then send me that permission to post his/her name and picture. >>>> >>>> It's hard to help the Austrialians and New Zealanders in that time >>>> period. I don't know what resources they have for that time period. >>>> >>>> Instead of trying to prove that is guy is the match's guy, prove that >>>> he's not. Maria dies first (her obit does NOT say he's "ausente") so look >>>> for his death in that parish. Maria's obit also says she left 2 children. >>>> You need to reconcile that as well. I'd look for children of Maria and >>>> this Francisco for 5 years after Oct 1855 just to be really sure. And be >>>> really sure that you don't have 2 Francisco Joses married to 2 Maria >>>> Isabels in that same freguesia. I would think it would be very difficult >>>> to >>>> lie on a confession roll as well. The priest would find out. >>>> >>>> Cheri Mello >>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen >>>> Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira >>>> Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:34 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is just a shot in the dark looking for any help. My wife has a >>>>> close DNA match in New Zealand. He is the grandson of Francis Joseph. A >>>>> mariner that jumped ship in New Zealand in the 1860s, reported that he >>>>> was >>>>> widowed when he married in New Zealand in the 1880s, was from the Azores >>>>> and had a father named Antonio that was a carpenter. Francis Joseph did >>>>> work as a cooper for his company in New Zealand. I got this information >>>>> from member of this list who is also a DNA match to my wife and a nephew >>>>> of >>>>> the closer match. We are studying the possibility that Francisco Jose >>>>> Cordeiro and Francis Joseph might be the same person hoping to prove or >>>>> disprove it. >>>>> >>>>> Their names and ages roughly line up. I do not know if Francisco's >>>>> father Antonio was a carpenter on Graciosa, but his son and grandson were >>>>> both carpenters. There is a Francis Joseph listed as a cooper on the >>>>> Whaling Ship Seconet on a voyage from 1955 to 1860 (a carpenter could >>>>> easily be a cooper) but unfortunately the database does not give an age >>>>> or >>>>> home. This vessel did go to the South Pacific. >>>>> >>>>> I am trying to trace Francisco Jose Cordeiro and looking for any >>>>> insight. I am especially trying to figure out if he could have been >>>>> absent >>>>> from the Azores from mid/late 1860s and on in spite of his wife's obit >>>>> saying they are still married. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here is his baptism in 1828 in Sao Mateus da Praia, Graciosa >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833_item1/P30.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his marriage on Sao Miguel Island in July 1849: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854_item1/P121.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his son Manuel's baptism in his home parish on Graciosa 5 >>>>> months later: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855_item1/P179.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his second son Joao's baptism in Urzelina, Sao Jorge in 1852 >>>>> (Note that Urzelina is where his wife lived the two years prior to >>>>> marriage >>>>> according to her marriage): >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P82.html >>>>> >>>>> That son died after just 40 days: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858_item1/P41.html >>>>> >>>>> Here is his 3d son (second named Joao) baptism in Oct 1855 (note: he >>>>> was born Jun 1854, about 15 months prior) >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860_item1/P14.html >>>>> >>>>> This marriage lists Francisco Jose Cordeiro as father of the groom and >>>>> is a carpenter in 1882: >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889_item1/P24.html >>>>> >>>>> This obit says Maria Isabel is "casada com Francisco Jose Cordeiro" in >>>>> 1901 >>>>> >>>>> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911_item1/P14.html >>>>> >>>>> The only Urzelina confessional roll available for the time in question >>>>> is 1888. It does not list Francisco Jose Cordeiro. His son Joao >>>>> Baptista >>>>> Cordeiro is listed there along with his wife and their first two kids. >>>>> Also listed in the house is a Maria Jose, mother, widow, 76 years old. I >>>>> am thinking this could be Joao's mother (Francisco Jose Cordeiro's wife) >>>>> but her name is Maria Isabel and she would be only 69 years old. It >>>>> doubt >>>>> it could be Joao's mother-in-law because her name was Rosa Ignacia and >>>>> she >>>>> was never married. Francisco's son Manuel went to California as a young >>>>> man (about 1869) and raised a family in Sacramento under the name Manuel >>>>> Jose Lamb. I can't find his immigration that might help figure out if >>>>> his >>>>> family were on Graciosa or Sao Jorge at the time of his departure. The >>>>> only other son (just to confirm his mother's obit said she left 2 kids) >>>>> stayed on Sao Jorge and had four kids, one of whom is my wife's >>>>> grandfather >>>>> Joao Batista Cordeiro Jr. >>>>> >>>>> I applaud anyone that takes the time to read through this mess and >>>>> look forward to any comments >>>>> >>>>> Bill Seidler >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores. >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/azores. >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. 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