> > Thanks for the words. But, I think my days are numbered here. > > Gerald >
That's a shame. Truly. You've contributed much in the last several years since the original beagleboard. I can imagine without project like this that many other boards like the nVidia Jetson K1 would not be available. But . . . I think I understand where you're coming form. Aside from the thanklessness. On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Gerald Coley <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the words. But, I think my days are numbered here. > > Gerald > > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 6:17 PM, William Hermans <[email protected]> wrote: > >> So, we bit our lip * >> >> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:16 PM, William Hermans <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> @Gerald >>> >>> Actually, my buddy and I would have bought the white, if that's all that >>> was available. So, much to our surprise when the beaglebone black was >>> announced . . . we immediately jumped on the pre-order list for two boards >>> . . . >>> >>> Would we have prefered you did one thing, or another slightly >>> differently ? Sure ! But as it is, you saved us 50% right away, by doing >>> what you did with the BBB versus the BBW. So . . . we nite our lip. Then >>> implement what we have to on the side to make the BBB work for our own >>> application. Too bad many youngsters would prefer to complain about what >>> the board *ISNT* versus what the board *IS*. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:09 PM, William Hermans <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> When you design low cost hardware, you have to make certain decisions >>>>> to get the cost down. >>>>> >>>>> 1) As few components as possible. >>>>> 2) Limit the application. Only one application, >>>>> 3) Push as much cost outside, for example the power supply. >>>>> 4) Lowest cost components. >>>>> 5) Limit the features. >>>>> 6) Cut the profit. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, there are several things I could have done different. Many of >>>>> these no one has even identified. But if I had, you would not have bought >>>>> it because it cost too much. After all hardware is supposed to be cheap. >>>>> That is where the value is, in the price. Not the value.. >>>>> >>>>> Nobody asked how I took it from $89 to $49. They just bought them up >>>>> and complained that it didn't do all the things they wanted it to do for >>>>> $49. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone of you want to change the design, add more features, make it >>>>> more robust, add more cost, increase the price, manufacture it and sell >>>>> it, >>>>> by all means, go ahead. I am sure there will b a few folks that value the >>>>> hardware and recognize that value, and will pay for it. >>>>> >>>>> But, I suspect the majority will complain that it is too expensive and >>>>> will stay with the BBB and instead ask how to flash the latest image in >>>>> the >>>>> BBB and why does my my GPIO does not work.. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Exactly, or close enough to what I was getting at. So Instead of me >>>> saying: "Pay no attention to John, as he tends to pontificate on others >>>> comments, and has no idea what the hell he is talking about." Let me just >>>> say that I figured Gerald had the sole purpose of designing this board to >>>> work "good enough" while remaining within a specified price range. e.g. it >>>> works, and it's cheap. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Gerald Coley <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> When you design low cost hardware, you have to make certain decisions >>>>> to get the cost down. >>>>> >>>>> 1) As few components as possible. >>>>> 2) Limit the application. Only one application, >>>>> 3) Push as much cost outside, for example the power supply. >>>>> 4) Lowest cost components. >>>>> 5) Limit the features. >>>>> 6) Cut the profit. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, there are several things I could have done different. Many of >>>>> these no one has even identified. But if I had, you would not have bought >>>>> it because it cost too much. After all hardware is supposed to be cheap. >>>>> That is where the value is, in the price. Not the value.. >>>>> >>>>> Nobody asked how I took it from $89 to $49. They just bought them up >>>>> and complained that it didn't do all the things they wanted it to do for >>>>> $49. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone of you want to change the design, add more features, make it >>>>> more robust, add more cost, increase the price, manufacture it and sell >>>>> it, >>>>> by all means, go ahead. I am sure there will b a few folks that value the >>>>> hardware and recognize that value, and will pay for it. >>>>> >>>>> But, I suspect the majority will complain that it is too expensive and >>>>> will stay with the BBB and instead ask how to flash the latest image in >>>>> the >>>>> BBB and why does my my GPIO does not work.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 5:46 PM, John Syne <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Harvey, you raised several very good points. I cannot say I disagree >>>>>> with anything you said. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > On Jul 4, 2016, at 3:36 PM, Harvey White <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 15:13:00 -0700, you wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> Pay no attention to William. You comments are welcome and Gerald >>>>>> has accepted your comments as valuable input by thanking your for your >>>>>> feedback. Now, let me address your concerns: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From my own engineering standpoint (and opinions will, of course, >>>>>> > vary): >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 1) The power supply used to power the BBB should be selected so >>>>>> that it does not damage the BBB, so a 2A power supply was specified. If >>>>>> you >>>>>> wish to change that specification, then the onus is on you to verify >>>>>> that a >>>>>> 4A power supply will not damage the BBB. Your conclusion that is may >>>>>> damage >>>>>> the BBB means that you should not use a 4A power supply. In addition, a >>>>>> power supply that is spec’d at 4A should not shutdown when it sees a 4A >>>>>> load, but rather, it should current limit at 4A. If the power supply is >>>>>> spec’d at 4A, then 4A should not be treated as a short circuit. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I would have designed the power supply circuitry so that with a >>>>>> power >>>>>> > supply of appropriate minimum rating, the maximum rating would not >>>>>> > have mattered. Using a power supply with a maximum current rating >>>>>> to >>>>>> > avoid damaging circuitry is not (again, IMHO) the best solution. >>>>>> If, >>>>>> > because of economic considerations, that decision is made, then it >>>>>> is >>>>>> > imperative of the designer to put this information specifically in >>>>>> the >>>>>> > power supply recommendations. Not doing this leads to damage, doing >>>>>> > this puts the responsibility on the user. Is this a "before the >>>>>> > design/after the design"? I don't know, and I don't remember >>>>>> (either >>>>>> > way) if this warning was ever in the power supply requirements. >>>>>> > Hindsight is 20/20, of course. If it's that important, then perhaps >>>>>> > the documentation needs to be changed. Decision not up to me. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> 2) The TI spec for the TPS65217C is a general recommendation as >>>>>> they are unaware of how you are going to use the part. The BBB SYS_5V >>>>>> powers several subsystems, including HDMI, I/O (VDD_3V3B) and USB. >>>>>> Clearly >>>>>> you could move the 100uF to the other side of the TPS2051, but then you >>>>>> need an additional capacitor on the SYS_5V which increases the cost and >>>>>> doesn’t provide any clear benefit, if you choose the correct power >>>>>> supply. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > "correct power supply" bothers me. I'm familiar with minimum >>>>>> current >>>>>> > capacity, voltage limits, short circuit current limits (infrequently >>>>>> > applied). Again, "a 4 amp power supply will allow the board to >>>>>> damage >>>>>> > itself, so we depend on a 2 amp maximum supply to avoid damage." >>>>>> This >>>>>> > could be discussed a bit.... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> 3) As Gerald has pointed out, the BBB is just a reference design. >>>>>> It was designed as a low cost solution which meant that tradeoffs were >>>>>> required to keep the price low. Clearly things could have been done >>>>>> differently, but then the BBB price would have been much higher and the >>>>>> board larger. Given that most users would probably not need these extra >>>>>> features, they were not incorporated into the current design. There are >>>>>> several spinoffs of the BBB, some with wifi, some with more RAM, etc, but >>>>>> none have been as successful as the BBB. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hmmm, well, perhaps (although not required) it might be nice to know >>>>>> > what the engineering limitations are of the design. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I've seen 1) the ones I know about, and 2) the ones I haven't found >>>>>> > out yet... and 3) the ones people are going to have to tell me >>>>>> > about... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > and I do like paranoid designs..... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Harvey >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> 4) While I have provided Gerald input into both the BBB and >>>>>> BeagleBoard-x15 designs, I ultimately defer to his judgement because he >>>>>> has >>>>>> the track record or having designed several products that are very >>>>>> successful. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> From my prospective, the BBB design is good, but your input was >>>>>> none the less valuable. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Regards, >>>>>> >> John >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> On Jul 4, 2016, at 2:11 PM, William Hermans <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> kzsoltkzsolt, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I would like to point out to you that you're talking to *the* >>>>>> person who designed the beaglebones, who also used to work for Texas >>>>>> Instruments at some point in his career. Someone who has made his designs >>>>>> free of charge to the public, which he has made perfectly clear to you in >>>>>> these post that you're free to change and use for your own personal use. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> So, telling him things, he probably already knows, in hopes of >>>>>> making yourself looks good. Actually make you look like a "know it all". >>>>>> e.g. it doesn't make you look good. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> SO perhaps you should realize that Gerald is probably well aware >>>>>> of what you're trying to discuss here, but is unwilling to change for >>>>>> various reasons. Reason, that you, I, or the next person do not need to >>>>>> understand. Because we can change to designs to our own liking if we so >>>>>> wish. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Gerald Coley < >>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> Thank you for your feedback. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Gerald >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:18 PM, <[email protected] <mailto: >>>>>> [email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> First of all making changes on design "tomorrow" is >>>>>> irresponsible, so I never request it. But good to know where is some >>>>>> "leak" >>>>>> in design. For example it is help to make workaround. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> "TI did not write that specification" >>>>>> >>> No, but use it in all reference design. See TI TPS20x1 PDS >>>>>> application information. See for example TPS2051 docu Fig 33. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> "If you put the CAP after the switch then ..." >>>>>> >>> Then why CAP placed OUT of PDS in all TI application information? >>>>>> >>> Because PDS has soft start feature which prevent overload IN (BBB >>>>>> SYS power rail). See for example TPS2051 docu Fig 4 and 8. >>>>>> >>> Fig 8 is perfect draw for this. The soft start feature limit >>>>>> charge of 100uF to 0,5A, therefore current never exceed USB1 and 2 >>>>>> current >>>>>> limit, therefore no dip on IN. >>>>>> >>> This is one main function of PDS. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> "I did not design the board for your application" >>>>>> >>> It is not required. But during research work to specify our >>>>>> problem I found many topic where users discover mysterious problems with >>>>>> power supply, and try to found a right one for BBB. This can be >>>>>> originated >>>>>> from startup current peak. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>>>>> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >>>>>> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >>>>>> >>> --- >>>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>> Google Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]<mailto: >>>>>> [email protected]>. >>>>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/b974f98a-0cff-4380-af1f-9ce5db9e199f%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> < >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/b974f98a-0cff-4380-af1f-9ce5db9e199f%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>>>>> >. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>>>>> >>> Gerald >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> >>> http://beagleboard.org/ <http://beagleboard.org/> >>>>>> >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>>>>> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >>>>>> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >>>>>> >>> --- >>>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>> Google Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]<mailto: >>>>>> [email protected]>. >>>>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcAH_U%3DVtJmLq62wrVPmRg8%2Bn27YjWM_oeorZezSTKorQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> < >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcAH_U%3DVtJmLq62wrVPmRg8%2Bn27YjWM_oeorZezSTKorQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>>>>> >. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>>>>> >>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss < >>>>>> http://beagleboard.org/discuss> >>>>>> >>> --- >>>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>> Google Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]<mailto: >>>>>> [email protected]>. >>>>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORo-TL2x_vUEni%2B-daiSEQXxLUU_N5p%2BEh%2Bt6tzpuuPT0g%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> < >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORo-TL2x_vUEni%2B-daiSEQXxLUU_N5p%2BEh%2Bt6tzpuuPT0g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>>>>> >. >>>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout < >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -- >>>>>> > For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >>>>>> > --- >>>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/cjolnb1s1bddugkd1v6c4jeqm1a0mhmvhh%404ax.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/70E6C922-DEB1-451D-A72C-AC4C2EA2DF06%40gmail.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gerald >>>>> >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://beagleboard.org/ >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "BeagleBoard" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcSGF0gqB5yJ4EQdbYHMvS04cNOej%2B1Bw8L5y7W6AnH4A%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcSGF0gqB5yJ4EQdbYHMvS04cNOej%2B1Bw8L5y7W6AnH4A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BeagleBoard" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORoMZ3MGFWPsXdhmAXPy-6xFbDT1cGTsY5wTEX4NACF3iA%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORoMZ3MGFWPsXdhmAXPy-6xFbDT1cGTsY5wTEX4NACF3iA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Gerald > > [email protected] > http://beagleboard.org/ > [email protected] > > -- > For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BeagleBoard" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcOQ1nxvBumLukA6fWSK%2BUOeY2_ehjWVTYoRTe0r-Tp%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CAHK_S%2BcOQ1nxvBumLukA6fWSK%2BUOeY2_ehjWVTYoRTe0r-Tp%3Dw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- For more options, visit http://beagleboard.org/discuss --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BeagleBoard" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beagleboard/CALHSORque6EHCBJM1ZDs7y8%3DKcwnmNNPjmcbT_yMcwhNSFo-QA%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
