I think you're missing the point Darryl. I agree with the need to be cautious and with the risk of being impatient. My reluctance to walk my bike is because there's no point to it. And judging by the number of other cyclists that disregard the sign, I'm guessing I'm not alone. If some feel more comfortable walking their bikes, they should absolutely do so (with or without a Walk Bike sign).
The point is that the language of the sign and the expectation that cyclists dismount and walk their bikes in order to navigate a narrow passage doesn't feel appropriate and misses the mark in my mind. I think Mike's original tongue-in-cheek comment was meant to highlight the same point. Would it be of any benefit for a MV operator to stop their engine, put their car in neutral, and push it through a similar scenario? Or should they rather reduce their speed and yield the right of way as needed (with out without the assistance of a flagger)? It's more than just semantics, too. When you put up a sign that says Walk Bikes when there's no good reason to ask/require it, you're just reinforcing the disconnect between many cyclists and rules of the road in general. As far as forward visibility on the O.B. Sherry bridge, it's much better for me atop my bicycle than when on foot. Perhaps if I rode a recumbent, my visibility would be improved by standing, but I don't and it isn't. Grant On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Darryl Jordan <[email protected]> wrote: > Grant > I think another way to consider this is speed and forward visibility; > particularly at the O.B. Sherry Park bridge. Due to the sharp corners at > the bridge, visibility for oncoming traffic is severely limited. Not all > cyclists have the honed reflexes you have to avoid potential collisions > with traffic, the bridge or landscape. Nor do I believe that faster traffic > has a right or obligation to pass slower traffic or zoom through > constricted areas at all times. If you have time to travel, you have time > to wait a moment until it's clear to go. Like you I can bicycle and > tricycle at walking speed but that doesn't mean I have to demonstrate my > prowess at my impatient whim. > Respectfully, > Darryl > > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 8/29/14, Grant Foster <[email protected]> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [Bikies] Southwest Path Intersection Curb Ramp Work > To: "Fernandez, Anthony" <[email protected]> > Cc: "S. Morris Rose" <[email protected]>, "Bikies" <[email protected]> > Date: Friday, August 29, 2014, 1:06 PM > > I get what > you're saying, Tony, but I don't think walking your > bike makes you any safer and I'm not familiar with any > regulation related to walking bikes through a narrow > roadway. > > This same sign was used at the O.B. Sherry Bridge while the > Cap City was closed two winters ago. I believe it was > installed for the same purpose: it's very difficult or > impossible for two cyclists to pass each other on the > bridge. But as tough as it is for two cyclists to pass each > other on that narrow bridge, it's IMPOSSIBLE for two > cyclists to walk their bikes past each other. The point is, > pay attention and you may need to yield the way if you try > and enter this narrow space at the time someone else does. > Walking your bike doesn't facilitate that at all except > that it might lower your speed of travel. I'm perfectly > capable of riding my bike at walking speed and can maneuver > myself and my vehicle much better when I'm on it than > when I'm walking beside it. If anything I may need to > stop and wait, but proceeding on foot isn't going to > help anyone. > > In the other (motor) > vehicle world, we would have a flagger to direct the flow of > traffic. Since path users travel at low speeds and typically > don't do much damage to each other in the event of a > collision, it doesn't make a ton of sense to pay for > that--yes, we can manage on our own. But asking me or > telling me to walk by bike doesn't help; if anything it > just increases my footprint and makes congestion > worse. > > Grant > > On Fri, > Aug 29, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Fernandez, Anthony < > [email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Grant, > > I get that the imperative could > rub people wrong. But in standard traffic signage there is a > clear distinction between regulatory (Stop, Yield, No Turn > On Red, > etc) and advisory (caution road work ahead or pictorial > signs for curvy road ahead, etc) signs. In this case, the > intent really is regulatory. A person who rides through a > narrow constricted area is not only endangering him/herself > but is also endangering > approaching bikes and pedestrians. In a perfect world all > bikers would be alert, courteous and considerate of others > as well as self-protective. Ditto for automobile drivers. > But in practice there seems to be a need for regulation as > well as advice. > > > But really, I think the reason > this is a hot button for bikers is that there are too many > instances where a Walk Bikes sign is in place for no good > reason. > Either the contractor has installed these at either end of > a long project with only intermittent constrictions, or left > the signs in place when there is no active construction, or > maybe the situation did not warrant it in the first place. I > really get that > frustration, and do what I can on my projects to use such > signage only where needed. > > Tony Fernandez > [email protected] > > voice: 608-266-9219 > > fax: 608-264-9275 > > > From: Grant Foster [mailto:[email protected]] > > > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2014 12:07 PM > > To: Fernandez, Anthony > > Cc: S. Morris Rose; Nelson, Larry; > Bikies > > Subject: Re: [Bikies] Southwest Path Intersection > Curb Ramp Work > > > > That made me smile, > Tony:) > > > > > I agree it's important > to keep things in perspective and I'm surprised at how > much spit and vinegar comes out of many bikies. Perhaps some > more pedaling is in order to release some of that built up > stress and anxiety. > > > > > > > On the other > hand... > > > > > > I do get how the > "Walk Bikes" sign/verbiage is a little unsettling > for folks. I think you did a great job of articulating the > practical reality of the construction and the fact that > caution needs to be exercised by cyclists on the path > during construction. I think what folks object to is the > imperative to "Walk Bikes". Something like > "Caution: Road Work Ahead" or "One Lane > Only" could probably communicate the same thing without > the risk of bike users feeling belittled. I don't think > the > city nor the contractors really care if people walk their > bikes or not, they just want to help warn folks of the > construction and try and prevent collisions. I don't > think cyclists are at all put out to have to slow down, be > careful and maybe even walk their > bikes (if they choose) as the roadways are reconstructed. > Most of us are accustomed to managing our two-wheeled > vehicles without incident on busy paths and around > unexpected obstacles even without the benefit of any signage > (and usually without walking our > bikes). Not sure if other communities have found other > signage that might do the job with less perceived > insult. > > > > > > I do appreciate that the > work is being done in a way to keep the path open and > I'm looking forward to the new > concrete. > > > > > > I hope everyone enjoys a > long weekend! > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at > 8:55 AM, Fernandez, Anthony <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Friends in the bike > community, > > Chill. > > > Where the City is replacing the > bike ramps it is being done half at a time so that bike and > pedestrian > traffic can continue to use the path. But in those > intersections under construction the remaining ramp area > will be less than half its current width. On a path with > more than 3000 users per day, common sense, courtesy for > other bikers and legal requirements > all coincide: two bikes going in opposite directions cannot > pass each other safely in a space less than 5 feet wide. > > > We have directed our contractor to > place the WALK BIKES signs immediately in advance of the > actual > constrictions, not for the entire length of path. Nor are > we discouraging anyone from using the path. I am sorry to > see such harsh words over what is what is such a simple, > commonsense precaution to keep people from biking head-on > into each other. > > > Tony > Fernandez > [email protected] > > voice: > 608-266-9219 > fax: > 608-264-9275 > > From: Bikies [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of S. Morris Rose > > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:25 PM > > To: Nelson, Larry > > Cc: Bikies > > > > > Subject: Re: [Bikies] Southwest Path Intersection > Curb Ramp Work > > > > > > > > > > > > I know, huh? If Rewey says it, > I, for one, rush out to do it without applying any of that > judgment stuff I've heard about. Just back from fucking > myself, for example. Felt funny doing > it... > > Here in Vancouver, the > Off-Broadway bike path - the most-used path in the city - > has been seeing construction all summer. Mostly, that's > meant that two or three blocks are under active > construction, which means that cyclists need to pop over to > the lane (think "alley") for those blocks, which > isn't too bad - motor vehicles also have to shift > routes, though thankfully few choose the lanes. But the > entire length of it through Kitsilano is > closed with signs that read "Cyclists - dismount and > walk on sidewalk." I know of few cyclists that will > walk their bikes for two miles because a sign absurdly says > so. > > > > > To the credit of planners, there is a marked detour down an > adjacent street two blocks north, which I took today for the > first time. Directly next to the detour signage in one of > the blocks were signs announcing that the road was closed > for what looked like > minor work easy to cycle past. There was no evidence that > the irony of one sign directing cyclists to detour on a > route di-fuckin'-rectly next to another warning us not > to go there - both placed by the same agency - was apparent > to the sign placers. > > > It does seem to a civilian > like myself that a principle of road signage is that it > shouldn't put absurd requirements on road users - even > bicyclists - just because it could conceivably > cover some ass or other some day. What would be better > would be if there was a safety smell test applied. That way, > when road users see a sign telling them to take some action > that inconveniences them, they can have some confidence > that, yeah, probably it's > smart to cycle around that or even dismount for a few > steps. That would lead to the safest outcomes. Shouldn't > that be the point of road signage? > > I think I get it, though. You > need to work on a street, you need to put up a sign keeping > people off it. The cost of putting up the sign is low, and > the cost of not putting it up is high, > and that's all that goes into the evaluation. After > all, you're there to work on a road, not to coddle road > users. > > And now I'd like to close > with a shout-out to all a them construction company lawyers > that are trolling bikies looking for the evidence they need > to shut down our lawsuits. HI GUYS!!! > SEE YOU IN COURT!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at > 5:42 PM, Larry D. Nelson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hopefully Brian, you will not be > injured. But if you are, I suspect that the > contractor's insurance > carrier will be very grateful for your email. Rewey, you > are a bad influence! > > > > From: Bikies [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Brian Mink > > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 5:52 PM > > To: Michael Rewey > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Bikies] Southwest Path Intersection > Curb Ramp Work > > > > > > I generally ignore the > "dismount and walk signs" and feel the same way > that Mike does. When vehicle drivers have to walk their cars > through construction zones I'll follow the same rule > of the road for my bike. > > > > Brian Mink > > > > > > > > > Michael > Rewey > > > > August 28, 2014 at 5:28 > PM > > > > > > I await the day when a construction > announcement states that drivers will have to walk their > > > cars through a construction zone. > > > > Mike Rewey > > > > > > On 28 Aug 2014 at 21:21, Ross, Arthur wrote: > > > > NOTICE: REVISED SCHEDULE ON PATH WORK - There will be > construction work on the > > Southwest Path between Randall Ave and Park Street, > beginning Tuesday, September 2 and > > > continuing through Friday, September 5. The City´s sidewalk > contractor will be replacing > > > street ramps at various locations. Ramps will be replaced > half at a time so that the path > > > will remain open for use, but riders will have to dismount > and walk bikes through the > > > construction zones. Please be aware and use caution when > riding or walking through this > > > area. For questions contact Tony Fernandez in Engineering at > > > [email protected]. > > > > > > Arthur Ross, Pedestrian-Bicycle Coordinator > > City of Madison Traffic Engineering Division > > 215 Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd., Suite 100 > > PO Box 2986 > > Madison, WI 53701-2986 > > 608/266-6225 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bikies mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org > > > > > > > > > > > Ross, > Arthur > > > > August 28, 2014 at 4:21 > PM > > > > > > NOTICE: REVISED SCHEDULE ON PATH WORK > - There will be construction work on the Southwest Path > between Randall Ave and Park Street, beginning Tuesday, > September > 2 and continuing through Friday, September 5. The > City's sidewalk contractor will be replacing street > ramps at various locations. Ramps will be replaced half at a > time so that the path will remain open for use, but riders > will have to dismount and walk bikes > through the construction zones. Please be aware and use > caution when riding or walking through this area. For > questions contact Tony Fernandez in Engineering at > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. > > > > > > Arthur Ross, Pedestrian-Bicycle Coordinator > > City of Madison Traffic Engineering Division > > 215 Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd., Suite 100 > > PO Box 2986 > > Madison, WI 53701-2986 > > 608/266-6225 > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bikies mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This email is free from viruses and > malware because > avast! Antivirus protection > is active. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bikies mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Scott M. Rose > > West Point Grey, Vancouver, British Columbia, > Canada > > > Now in my third > trimester > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bikies mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Bikies mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org > >
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