Let me complicate the legal discussion. Does a track stand
constitute a stop? The bike's progress is stopped, but there's no foot
on the ground. One of the lawyers want to file a brief?
On 7/11/2015 11:24 AM, Kevin Luecke wrote:
You lawyers and your overly detailed questions.... Without some
sketches, I'm not sure that I follow all of your questions. I am not a
lawyer, nor do I know statute as well as you, but based on years of
working with folks at the city and WisDOT who have been involved in
crafting and interpreting the statutes, my understanding is the following:
- As legal vehicles, bicyclists need to obey all traffic controls
wherever they encounter them. This is obvious on streets, but also
applies on paths In Madison, paths are considered streets that only
allow non-motorized traffic (this addressed your #6).
- You and Eric consider different examples: Eric was interested in a
path with a stop sign that is in its own right of way (ie. not running
parallel to a street). You cite examples where a path is parallel to a
street (a side path).
- For independent paths in their own right of way, bicyclists must
obey traffic controls as they come upon them. If there is no traffic
control for the path or the street, this is an uncontrolled
intersection and the usual rule of traffic on the left shall yield to
traffic on the right applies.
- Where a side path exists, bicyclists must obey the traffic controls
that are placed on the street. A good example of this is the John
Nolan Path at Rimrock, near the Sheraton. The path does not have a
traffic control, but the parallel roadway (John Nolan) has a signal.
Bicyclists must obey the signal. The same would apply if the parallel
roadway had a stop sign (off hand, I can't think of an example of
this, but it likely exists).
- To further confuse things, if a pedestrian signal is present,
bicyclists are supposed to obey that, and not the traffic signal. This
doesn't work well because ped signals have shorter cycles than traffic
signals. For the most part, Madison has removed ped signals at these
locations, or posted signs stating "Bicyclists obey signal." (Which
isn't just a reminder to obey the signal, but is actually telling you
which signal to obey.)
So in short:
- If riding on a street, obey all signs and signals that you come upon
on the street.
- If riding on a path NOT NEXT TO a street, obey all signs and signals
that you come upon on the path.
- If riding on a path NEXT TO a street, obey all signs and signals
BOTH on the path AND on the parallel street.
- The easy way to think about this is that any sign or signal facing a
bicyclist, even if it is on an adjacent street, applies to the bicyclist.
Getting into the statues gets confusing and convoluted, and there are
some conflicting points, but if a bicyclist is involved in a crash and
they did not stop for a sign or signal facing them, they are likely at
fault.
Kevin
On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Clayton Griessmeyer
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Kevin,
When you say bicyclists must stop for the stop sign is that
because of Wis. Stat. 346.803 (1) (b):
“every person operating a bicycle upon a bicycle way shall: _obey
each traffic signal or sign facing a roadway which runs parallel
and adjacent to a bicycle way_.”?
Regarding the above:
1.If a stop sign is on the bike path, wouldn’t the sign be facing
the path/person and not the roadway?
2.Does the above refer to signs placed parallel and adjacent to a
bicycle way, or parallel and adjacent to a roadway? The word
“runs” makes me think it means obey a sign facing an adjacent
roadway and not the bicycle way, because a sign doesn’t run but a
roadway does.
3.Does this mean if a bicycle way is next to a roadway and the
roadway has a sign or signal, that the bicyclist has to obey the
same signal that the cars have (the signal would be facing the
roadway in that scenario plus since the law refers to signal, it
seems more likely it refers to road signals and not path.
4.If the above was meant to apply to bicyclists on the path
shouldn’t it read, “obey each traffic signal or sign facing
them.” Or similar language to stop law, “every operator of
vehicle approaching an official stop sign at an intersection shall
cause such vehicle to stop before entering……”?
5.What happens when there is a sign on a path such as described
below in the DOT crossing guide but the roadway the cyclist
crosses is perpendicular not adjacent?
6.If the above refers to signs and signals on adjacent roadways,
do you know of any law or rule that requires bicyclists to obey
the stop or yield signs placed on the paths? (I do not believe the
car stop law applies on paths because of Wis. Stat. 346.02 (4) (a)
stating rules of the road apply to bicycles riding upon a roadway
or shoulder of highway.
Have a nice weekend. Hope you are doing well.
Clay
*From:*Bikies [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Luecke
*Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2015 4:05 PM
*To:* Harald Kliems; Eric White; Bikies
*Subject:* Re: [Bikies] Cap City Trail rail crossing in Fitchburg
Eric:
This situation is described on WisDOT's webpage:
http://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/safety/education/bike/bike-crossing-guide.pdf
Essentially, you follow the traffic controls as you encounter them:
- Bicyclists must stop for the stop sign (Harald is correct that
stop signs do not apply to pedestrians).
- Enter the crosswalk in a manner that is consistent with the safe
use of the crosswalk by a pedestrian (you can't jump out in front
of approaching traffic).
- When (if) a motorist stops or yields for you, proceed across.
That said, I rarely rely on motorists to yield to me, and to be
honest, once I've stopped, I would almost prefer that they just
get through the intersection rather than wait for me to get
across. As for some of your questions...
- If a car has yielded to a pedestrian, they do not have to stay
stopped for an approaching bicyclist if the bicyclist has a stop
or yield sign - the bicyclist must obey the sign, and then proceed
to the crosswalk.
- If there are no traffic controls, the usual rule of the vehicle
on the left shall yield to the vehicle on the right applies. As
you note, it is often difficult to know if the other traffic has a
stop or yield sign, and because we have so over-signed our streets
people assume that if they don't have a sign, the cross traffic must.
So in summary:
- Legally, a bicyclist has the right of way as a bicyclist AFTER
they have stopped, and once they move safely into the crosswalk
with crossing vehicles having enough time to stop.
- Practically, you should assume that the cars are not going to stop.
Have a good weekend.
Kevin
---
Subject: Re: [Bikies] Cap City Trail rail crossing in Fitchburg
In my opinion that's definitely one of the unclear cases. The stop
sign should not apply to pedestrians, as traffic control devices
only apply to vehicles. What the situation for cyclists is I have
no idea. Do you not have the right-of-way at all? Do you have to
come to a stop, but then you get the right-of-way that a crosswalk
confers to you? If a car stopped for a pedestrian, do they have to
remain stopped for an approaching cyclist? And how does a person
driving know whether there is a stop sign on the bike trail and
therefore the normal rules of a crosswalk don't apply?
Harald.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 11:33 AM Eric White
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Thanks Harald. That's informative. My confusion stems from
what happens when there's a stop sign for peds and cyclists at
the same location there's a crosswalk. Do I still have the
right of way as a ped / cyclist or am I stopped by the sign,
and therefore cross traffic can flow by unimpeded?
--
*Kevin Luecke
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>*
--
*Kevin Luecke
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>*
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