Thanks to everyone on the forum for all your research and advice and
So, I almost ordered some formaldehyde, but did not. I thought more
about it, and figured, you know, a shot of ethyl alcohol in a cyst
would do the same thing, (formaldehyde is 10% alcohol anyway) or
iodine or most anything that would kill bacteria.
Plus, when I took Marleys' head in to be European mounted, the
taxidermist really steered me away from it. (I had no idea it was
illegal in California). I just injected the abscess on Lily's face
twice with Penn-G.
So, update. The main vet at our local place, Tri-County Vet in Gilroy,
ca. raises sheep and has had luck simply using penn-G in a high dose
for a month on his animals that get Coryne. It's totally off-label,
and, not a miracle cure.
The regimen is isolate the sick, and give 12ml per 100lb of animal,
sub-Q once a day and add a good bit of alfalfa to the otherwise local
hay to supplement the nutritional value. So, they not only get some
antibiotic help, they get a supplemented diet. On any other year, I
have not had to supplement the hay with anything. But in this case,
they get a good amount of alfalfa, every day.
Bear in mind, the non-symptomatic goats and sheep I have are plump,
spry and healthy. They eat only the hay/graze on my property. No
supplements, except garden clippings, and green grass from the mower.
Occasional treats of grain or peanuts.
The other thing I need to mention is: some animals have had visible
caseous abscesses and appear plump and healthy. Marley died with no
visible skin eruptions, and Lily, just got one, but has been getting
skinny for awhile--so she has had it internally for some time. From
what I have read, it is not clear how effective their own antibodies
are, to preventing further infection. For instance, if an animal
simply gets an abscess on the lymph node in the neck first, does that
mean it won't get it internally? Not sure. Also, there is a vaccine,
which is made from dead bacteria, and helps them develop antibodies,
but it's efficacy is not really known either.
After 2.5 weeks of single-handedly shooting 2 really sick, 1 maybe
sick, 1 with bad lungs and 3 that have had abscesses but otherwise,
look great, I got tired of that injection regimen of 7 sheep and have
narrowed it down to 3 animals, for the rest of the 1.5 weeks.
It will be interesting to discuss these animals on this forum, for
posterity. I don't expect a miracle, but let's see what happens.
Caseous is also called the "wasting disease", because, seemingly no
matter how much they eat, they still tend to wither away. Besides the
skinny ribs, the other place to look is their rear, is it sunken,
instead of plump? And the tail is like an empty sock. The disease also
effects their ability to make a good coat, and winter is coming, so,
we will see how they do.
Lily the ewe, about 7 years old, on a malnutrition scale of 1-10, with
10 being dead, she looks like a 8 or 9. Marley was a
10--appearance-wise. After her being in a pen with 3 other girls with
tons of penicillin and fed a decent amount of alfalfa plus local hay,
for 2.5 weeks, she looks about the same--but does not look worse. I
don't expect a miracle, but, I am comparing her to the next animal we
will discuss. Lily's the one who also had a visible caseous on her
neck which drained/popped last week and is drying out now. She
obviously has it in her body, since she has that wasting-look. Maybe
the abscess was taking a lot out of her system, and if she is
continued to be fed better-than usual food, she might gain weight
after a month of antibiotics. She is part wool sheep and usually is
our "Big Mama", but not right now. We will see how her winter coat
Verne the ram, also, about 7 years old, started as a solid 9 on the
scale, now looks like a 6 or 7! I am surprised. His rear area looks a
bit better and his ribs are almost invisible now, which is good. Tail
is still too skinny, though. He has never had visible caseous, but,
neither did Marley. We will see how his coat shapes up as well. We
have had 80-100*F days and barely 60*F evenings, so, no winter coats,
Harpo the ram, about 5 years old, has never had visible caseous, but
looks a bit skinny in his rear and tail. I normally refer to him as
my "rock star:" since his coat is usually amazing. It looks pretty
good right now, he's just a 3-4 on the malnutrition scale. He has
changed little since the regimen. Maybe I just never noticed he has a
skinny rear, and he has not lost weight. Can't see his ribs, because
his mane is actually pretty good.
The one I mentioned above, with bad lungs, is old Stella, no idea how
old she is, but she moves slow (can still run plenty fast, though),
and has always been deaf as a post, as I have had her for the last 7
years or so. The vet said her lungs sounded the worst, but she's not
skinny at all. She might have simply had real pneumonia. I think 2.5
weeks of 10ml penn G per day should be OK for that. I am done
treating her. She's out of isolation and if she starts to look like
she is suffering, I will put her down. She recently had a caseous on
her neck. I am not treating her any more, because she is difficult to
inject and probably will end up being put down soon, anyway. She is
such a survivor though, I am curious to see how she does. I do have
one of her daughters. One of my favorite ewes as a pet.
The rest of the three are Groucho, the ram, about 5 years and Pebbles
and Angie, the ewes, about 6 years. They all have had caseous on the
neck, and if that was their first infection of it, we shall see if
their antibodies work now, to prevent further infection. They did get
2.5 weeks of high-dose Penn-G, but I am done with them. I treated them
more as a preventative measure. They are 1s on the malnutrition scale.
Picture of health. The thing to watch is-- if, after that initial neck
caseous, do they start to waste away in a year or so? They are my hope
for the survivability of this onslaught.
This makes me not want to get any new animals, or even, have more
lambs, since, if they cannot survive it, being born on this property
is a death sentence, unless I get rid of everyone and wait at least a
year before having any other ungulates.
-Michael Smith, Perino Ranch Blackbellies
On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 9:30 PM, Michael Smith <mwsmotorspo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> huh.... I started searching around... where the heck do I get
> Formaldehyde? Amazon. Of course
> read the last review.... bingo.
> "This product saved one of our oldest goats when she suddenly got CL.
> We injected it into her abscess multiple times before it could burst,
> and it dried the abscess out completely! Within a week or so it had
> completely shriveled up and fallen off! Specific instructions are
> online, but this is the right product for treating CL in goats!"
> _Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies.
> On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Michael Smith <mwsmotorspo...@gmail.com>
>> they can get large, like the size of a plum cut in half and under the
>> skin. The are fairly firm. I have lanced one myself, it comes out like
>> white-grey toothpaste and smells. The vet I have first thought this
>> one was not Caseous, because it stank. I think it was coincidence,
>> because it was close to the mouth and may have had some mouth bacteria
>> in it as well, that helped it stink. I am sure they were all Caseous.
>> I've done more searching today and read in more than one place about
>> people simply injecting the cyst itself with 1ml of formaldehyde
>> instead of opening them, draining, and cleaning the wound, and
>> expecting to disinfect everything that hits the ground. That treatment
>> regimen is in every "Scientific" report you can read on the web. The
>> more home-spun formaldehyde approach reportedly kills the bacteria in
>> their protective cyst, causes the cyst itself to dry up (of course),
>> and eventually just fall off--harmless. Some breeders have reportedly
>> tried it on many animals. It sounds almost too good to be true, but,
>> since every other treatment involves exposing the area to tons of live
>> bacterium--I'll give it a try. I've seen at least 3-4 of these cysts.
>> One is active now on a ewe and I might try the formaldehyde, the other
>> two on other ewes, one we treated, one we did not, and one on a ram,
>> which we got to too late and it had opened up, leaked out, and dried
>> up by the time we got to it. From my reading, if they are lucky, they
>> get one on the lower face and develop some form of antibodies for any
>> future infection.
>> I suppose one is lucky if they catch a real obvious cyst on the face
>> or elsewhere on the skin. Marley never showed any outward symptoms. It
>> ravaged his body internally. Admittedly, with my new crazy-busy
>> position I took at my job, I'd been operating on auto-pilot and not
>> paying as close attention. He's always had strange issues with
>> shedding too early in the end of winter and having a not-so-marvelous
>> coat, so I became numb to trying to look for problems on him.
>> I've now identified one other ram in imminent danger--normally hearty,
>> he is also skinny, two more rams that might be in trouble, and two
>> ewes in serious trouble (one is very old), and two, who have had
>> cysts, I plan to isolate and treat them all with large doses of Pen-G
>> for 30 days.
>> The antibiotic regimen is a Hail Mary. Besides isolation, the papers
>> I've look up simply recommend culling for the truly infected. My local
>> sheep-herding Vet recommends it, because, I guess he has had some luck
>> with it. The woman vet I usually use-- knows this regimen from him.
>> She had not heard about the vaccine (efficacy of it is not really
>> entirely known--again, it causes a small case of it, and the animal
>> builds up antibodies), but I plan to try it ASAP and use it on any
>> lambs I have here from now on. It is NOT tested or developed for
>> goats. There's no vaccine for goats, yet. And I have 3 goats.
>> The biggest issue is: leaving a pasture alone for 8 months or more, to
>> try to let it no longer be infected. My property is too small to try
>> to do that. There's a central place with the shelter, water, etc, and
>> if the bacteria is present, it can thrive there.
>> -Michael, Perino Ranch Blackbellies
>> On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Carol Elkins <celk...@critterhaven.biz>
>>> Michael, I am so sorry you are having to go through this.
>>> Coryne psuedotuberculosis is the bacterium that causes the disease Caseous
>>> Lymphadenitis (CL) in sheep. There is no cure. See
>>> http://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/animal-disease-faq/caseous-lymphadenitis and
>>> other sources.
>>> An abscess on a sheep's jaw/throat is commonly the first symptom to appear
>>> with CL. But it is very easy to confuse with bottle jaw and milk goiter.
>>> I've read that CL abscesses are hard whereas bottle jaw and milk goiter
>>> lumps are soft. What do the abscesses on your sheep look and feel like?
>>> At 02:15 PM 9/12/2015, you wrote:
>>>> Thanks for everyone's advice. The Vet came and did a necropsy on Marley:
>>>> Coryne psuedotuberculosis. All through his body.
>>>> I have had a few of the abscesses on my sheeps neck or jaw before and
>>>> was aware this was contagious, but was not that aware of how
>>>> devastating it could be.. Now I am.
>>> This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list
>>> Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
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