I’ve now searched the forum for problems refilling the steam boiler and read all I can find. HowardG’s long thread from 2017 was illuminating. Seems that Todd’s preferred fix for a sticking solenoid valve was replacement rather than cleaning. Apparently cleaning is hit-or-miss as a solution. Also according to Todd, the issue might not even be the solenoid valve, but a blocked water inlet at the bottom of the steam boiler. The upshot is that hard water is the bane of this hobby, which I knew but didn't fully appreciate until now.
In either case — whether replacing the solenoid valve or checking the water inlet at the bottom of the boiler — the steam boiler has to be disconnected and removed from the housing. This is daunting and beyond my skill level, but my friend who plumbed and hard-wired the IV-R might be able to do it. By the way, he put together the de-scaling tool I showed in the last post, not me. Credit where credit is due… Anyway, I’ll try de-scaling the solenoid valve first, since doing so won’t require removal of the steam boiler. If that works, great. If not, I already have a new solenoid valve ($26 from eBay), so maybe I can pay my friend to remove the steam boiler and replace the valve. I’m not sure he’ll want to take on such a major job, but a couple hundred bucks might be an enticement. On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 5:18:35 PM UTC-5 billherbst wrote: > Thanks, Mike! Yes, replacing that Steam boiler refill valve (or even > taking it off to clean) seems nightmarishly complicated, especially on a > rotary pump Brewtus. I daresay I will not undertake it. I did make a "tool" > to descale the valve (pic below), which seems possible. Remove the > solenoid, unscrew and take off the end cap of the valve, then fit the > plastic end over the now open outer metal tube of the valve, pour in some > citric acid water (to de-scale the pin, spring, and piston), and let sit > for awhile. I don't know if it'll work, but I'm willing to give it a try. > > [image: de-scaling tool.jpg] > > > On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 2:08:17 PM UTC-5 Mike Walsh wrote: > >> Bill, sorry I haven't replied before. I have had a near miss in this >> exact same spot. My fill solenoid was getting stuck, but eventually worked >> loose (or pieces moved into a better position) and daily I pull water from >> the hot water wand to activate the solenoid. So far, things are staying >> unstuck and working OK. >> >> I do know that when I was fearing I'd have to replace it I did do a >> search in this group, and there is at least one extensive post (including >> pictures if I remember correctly) on replacing that part. I believe I >> found the part at WLL in stock as well. I do remember from the post that >> it is very difficult to get to, and I remember thinking that if I ever >> attempted it, it was an ideal time to clean everything out and rebuild >> because basically all of it had to come out. I also remember that >> alignment was a big deal, and you couldn't necessarily tighten down all the >> connections as a result, so high temp teflon tape was important. A lot of >> playing around to avoid leaks. >> >> I believe you've found the issue, and now it's probably a matter of >> finding that post and digging deep if you are going to do a major repair >> like this. As you said, this is not in an easy spot, and it looked to me >> like one of the worst repairs you could take on. Best of luck. >> >> On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 12:55:24 AM UTC-4 billherbst wrote: >> >>> >>> Never mind. As I feared, I posted too soon about a miraculous recovery. >>> After one shot, the pump kicked in to refill the steam boiler, but no water >>> flowed. So, either the solenoid relay is operating intermittently (since it >>> clicked when I tested it two days ago), or the valve was stuck, came >>> unstuck once, and is now stuck again. I'd wager that the valve is dirty >>> rather than broken. Now the question is, how to get the valve out to >>> dismantle and clean? There's no room in there for hands, fingers, or tools. >>> It's silly to say, but I wish Expobar had made the IV-R a little more >>> user-repair friendly. But the machine was designed around a vibe pump, not >>> that humongous rotary pump assembly, so the innards are crammed full. >>> On Sunday, May 2, 2021 at 2:24:21 PM UTC-5 billherbst wrote: >>> >>>> Something weird happened this afternoon. Weird good, maybe. I’ve gotten >>>> pretty skilled at filling the steam boiler by hand (by pulling the wire >>>> from the level sensor, removing it with a 19mm deep socket wrench, then >>>> using a gooseneck kettle to refill the steam boiler). After reinstalling >>>> and reconnecting the level sensor, the IV-R then heats up both boilers >>>> normally and is good to pull shots and steam/froth milk for 4 or 5 >>>> cappuccinos/lattes before the level in the steam boiler drops below the >>>> level sensor probe, which activates the pump again, after which it runs >>>> for >>>> two minutes (trying unsuccessfully to refill the steam boiler). Then the >>>> pump is shut down by the controller, and the Brewtus is dead. At that >>>> point, I refill the boiler by hand and the Brewtus springs back to life >>>> for >>>> another day or two. >>>> >>>> After pulling a shot today (my fifth in three days) is that the pump >>>> turned on to refill the steam boiler, and apparently it succeeded. Rather >>>> than running for two minutes, the pump ran for 5 seconds, then stopped. 10 >>>> seconds later, it ran for another 2 seconds, then stopped again. Another 5 >>>> seconds later, the pump ran for an additional 3 seconds, then stopped, >>>> this >>>> time permanently. And, wonder of wonders, the machine continued to >>>> operate, >>>> heating up the steam boiler and then the brew boiler, exactly as it should. >>>> >>>> That tells me that this time the steam boiler was indeed being >>>> refilled, at least enough to get the water level above the sensor probe >>>> and >>>> keep the machine functional. I surmise that whatever was preventing the >>>> relay valve from opening — a funky spring or maybe some scale causing the >>>> piston not to move — gave way, perhaps from all the jostling and banging >>>> I’ve been doing. I don’t know. >>>> >>>> What I do know is that the IV-R started to operate as it should — as >>>> if by magic. I don’t know that this will continue (I’m doubtful about >>>> permanent recovery, since whatever caused the valve problem seems likely >>>> to >>>> return). I may have to post tomorrow that the Brewtus died again. For the >>>> moment, however, it’s good news, and a pleasant surprise. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, May 1, 2021 at 7:50:11 AM UTC-5 billherbst wrote: >>>> >>>>> Man oh man. This is turning into an odyssey. Having now watched Todd’s >>>>> old WLL video on checking the electrical systems of the Brewtus, I ran >>>>> the >>>>> check on the steam boiler refill solenoid relay (Parker KT09). I pulled >>>>> off >>>>> the connector that powers the pump from the controller and also pulled >>>>> the >>>>> connector from the level sensor. Turned on the machine, and the solenoid >>>>> audibly clicked. Turned the machine off and on, and the relay clicked >>>>> again. Did it a couple more times just to be sure, and the solenoid >>>>> always >>>>> clicked. I take it that means that the coil in the solenoid isn’t burned >>>>> out, and that the relay works as it should. >>>>> >>>>> According to the video, this means that the valve that opens the >>>>> water channel to the steam boiler is broken, blocked, or stuck. There are >>>>> two problems with that. First, the valve assembly appears to be attached >>>>> with two phillips screws, but it must also be removed from the connecting >>>>> plumbing lines. In the Brewtus IV-R with its huge rotary pump, however, >>>>> there’s no room to get in there. Am I correct in assuming that >>>>> considerable >>>>> disassembly of the machine is necessary to remove the valve assembly? >>>>> Second, though I’m making progress at figuring out how to address this >>>>> problem, we’re now well into territory above my skill levels. I’ve >>>>> attached >>>>> a jpg of the valve. If I could get it out, perhaps even I could repair it. >>>>> >>>>> [image: Solenoid Valve (fill steam boiler.jpg]I’m also curious about >>>>> what the other solenoid relay does. It’s the same Parker KT09 solenoid, >>>>> with what appears to be an identical valve assembly, but it’ mounted on >>>>> the >>>>> other other side of the machine between the controller and the pump. What >>>>> does that do, and could it be involved in the steam boiler not refilling? >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 8:44:19 PM UTC-5 Brian wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ah hah! This is the key piece of the puzzle! So far I had been going >>>>>> on the assumption that your level controller was misreading a low water >>>>>> level. But, if it is trying to fill because the water level is low, and >>>>>> the >>>>>> level is not rising there is one last piece of hardware that is the >>>>>> culprit. There is a solenoid that the level controller opens to allow >>>>>> the >>>>>> water from the pump to divert to the steam boiler. It is located towards >>>>>> the bottom of the machine, and is likely from Parker. >>>>>> >>>>>> What your describing is exactly what would happen if that solenoid >>>>>> fails to open. Most likely cause of a solenoid not opening is a failed >>>>>> coil. This happens with time, if you check continuity across the coil it >>>>>> will likely read open, or very high resistance. This would indicate that >>>>>> you are in need of a new coil. If you reply back with the VA or watts >>>>>> rating of the coil And your local voltage (don’t want to assume you’re >>>>>> in >>>>>> the US) I can tell you expected ohms of the coil. >>>>>> >>>>>> Second most likely is bad wiring, could be a loose or bad connection >>>>>> between the level controller and the coil. Check for corrosion or loose >>>>>> connectors. >>>>>> >>>>>> Final possibility is the relays inside the level controller have >>>>>> failed. This feels the least likely to me, i’d hazard a bet that it’s >>>>>> the >>>>>> solenoid coil, but I have limited experience with these gicar >>>>>> controllers. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I had to put money on it I’d bet on the solenoid coil, the good >>>>>> news is this is a very easy to replace part. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best of luck bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, April 28, 2021 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-4 billherbst wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian, thanks so much for your willingness to help, and your >>>>>>> patience as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here’s some more info that may affect the troubleshooting diagnosis. >>>>>>> When I remove the level sensor and fill the steam boiler by hand with a >>>>>>> gooseneck kettle and then replace and reconnect the sensor, the machine >>>>>>> springs back to life instantly and works as it should. The steam boiler >>>>>>> heats up to full pressure (1.3 bars), and then the brew boiler heats up >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> PID-set temp (200° F). The Brewtus will operate correctly for a number >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> shots and milk steamings, until the water level in the steam boiler >>>>>>> falls >>>>>>> below the sensor. Then the sensor signals low stam water and the pump >>>>>>> kicks >>>>>>> in to refill. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here’s the thing, though: the pump is NOT refilling the steam >>>>>>> boiler! That’s why the pump runs for two minutes, then is shut down by >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> controller (presumably to prevent the pump from burning out), which >>>>>>> disables the Brewtus, since neither boiler will heat. In other words, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> level sensor is not merely "detecting" low water. It's reporting low >>>>>>> water >>>>>>> accurately, because the water level is in fact low. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, the level sensor seems to be working correctly — when the water >>>>>>> level in the steam boiler is high enough to cover some of the sensor >>>>>>> probe, >>>>>>> the machine works fine. When the water level dips below the sensor >>>>>>> probe, >>>>>>> the pump starts up automatically (as it should). But no water enters >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> boiler. >>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 7:24:02 AM UTC-5 Brian wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey Bill, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That’s great news about the level sensor. From more of your >>>>>>>> description I am positive that your issue is the level sensor, or the >>>>>>>> wiring going to the sensor or the boiler ground. The reason I am so >>>>>>>> sure of >>>>>>>> this is based on your follow up description. The level controller >>>>>>>> inside >>>>>>>> the brewtus has two separate relays, on that runs the pump, the other >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> allows the boilers to heat or not. Because of the way the brewtus is >>>>>>>> wired, >>>>>>>> neither boiler can heat when the level controller detects low water in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> steam boiler. Since that relay is Seperator from the pump relay, if it >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> a failing relay it would almost certainly only effect the pump, or the >>>>>>>> heaters. This sounds like the level controller is operating correctly, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> is just detecting a false low water signal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If cleaning the sensor helped temporarily, it may just be time to >>>>>>>> replace the sensor. That said this does kind of sound like a bad wire >>>>>>>> issue. It’s possible when you cleaned the sensor you also jostled the >>>>>>>> wire >>>>>>>> into the right position. I would recommend checking resistance between >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> level controller side and the boiler side of both wires. Should be >>>>>>>> zero or >>>>>>>> very close to it. If not then just make up a new wire. There’s a >>>>>>>> chance this could also be bad scale buildup inside the steam boiler. >>>>>>>> Scale >>>>>>>> is not electrically conductive, so with enough of it if could be >>>>>>>> preventing >>>>>>>> a good connection between the boiler ground and the level sensor. I >>>>>>>> suppose it’s still possible the level controller is bad, but this >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> very unlikely to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the “static relay” they are referring to the solid state >>>>>>>> relay for the brew boiler. Unless you are having more problems than >>>>>>>> you’ve >>>>>>>> described so far, this part will do absolutely nothing for you. The >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> reason I could guess that they would have recommended that part, is >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> whoever you spoke with latched onto your comment about the brew boiler >>>>>>>> temp >>>>>>>> dropping, but doesn’t understand the brewtus’ wiring diagram well >>>>>>>> enough to >>>>>>>> notice that the power source for both boilers is routed through the >>>>>>>> level >>>>>>>> controller. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, April 27, 2021 at 1:15:36 AM UTC-4 billherbst wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Update: We're making progress, but no cigar yet. I removed the >>>>>>>>> level sensor from the steam boiler and checked it for continuity. It >>>>>>>>> wasn't >>>>>>>>> consistent across the length of the probe, so I cleaned the probe >>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>> wire brush, which restored consistent continuity. Put the sensor back >>>>>>>>> in, >>>>>>>>> and the Brewtus began working as it should, which continued for two >>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>> (five shots). After steaming/frothing some milk today to top up a >>>>>>>>> latte, >>>>>>>>> the IV-R failed again. The pump started to refill the steam boiler, >>>>>>>>> stopped >>>>>>>>> after five seconds (good sign), but then started up again and didn't >>>>>>>>> stop. >>>>>>>>> So, something has failed in the circuitry between the level sensor, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> controller, and the pump. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A replacement static relay should arrive soon from WLL, along with >>>>>>>>> a small tub of thermal paste from Amazon. Of course, I don't have a >>>>>>>>> clue if >>>>>>>>> that's where the problem is, but we'll see... >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 9:37:18 AM UTC-5 billherbst wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brian and Ira, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I had a long response composed, but let me cut to the chase. I >>>>>>>>>> think the problem is your #2 suggestion — a funky level sensor or >>>>>>>>>> controller relay. I went into the kitchen five minutes ago and found >>>>>>>>>> what I >>>>>>>>>> assume to be the steam boiler level sensor (the plastic cover on the >>>>>>>>>> connecter is yellow, and it's the only single wire connection on top >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> steam boiler). I traced the wire back to bottom of the main >>>>>>>>>> controller >>>>>>>>>> mounted to the front of the inner case, then pulled the connector >>>>>>>>>> off the >>>>>>>>>> sensor at the boiler and re-connected it. Turned on the main power >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> steam switches and the IV-R came back to life. Worked normally for >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> four minutes. The brew boiler began to heat, got to 198° F, and then >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> machine conked out again (meaning the same symptoms as before — the >>>>>>>>>> pump >>>>>>>>>> came on and didn't stop, and the brew boiler temp reading on the PID >>>>>>>>>> immediately began to decline). So, the sensor is bad or there's a >>>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>>>> with the controller. Either way, the reprieve was short-lived. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> WLL advised me to replace the static relay, so yesterday I >>>>>>>>>> ordered a new one from them — 60 bucks for the part and some thermal >>>>>>>>>> paste >>>>>>>>>> from Amazon. I'm not savvy enough to know if that's related to what >>>>>>>>>> you've >>>>>>>>>> advised and I'm experiencing, so I'll wait to hear what you or Ira >>>>>>>>>> (or >>>>>>>>>> other savvy aficionados here) thinks about it. If the static relay >>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>> the solution, I’m pretty sure I can send it back for a refund or >>>>>>>>>> just keep >>>>>>>>>> it for a rainy day. I'm beginning to consider that my days as a >>>>>>>>>> longtime >>>>>>>>>> Brewtus user might be numbered. A Profitec P300 is starting to look >>>>>>>>>> attractive. I know that the fantasy of an prosumer espresso machine >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> doesn't break is just that — a fantasy — but I am getting tired of >>>>>>>>>> repairs >>>>>>>>>> for which I'm minimally qualified. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have no doubt that you guys could fix this in a jiffy. I’m less >>>>>>>>>> confident about myself… >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> —Bill >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 9:28:50 PM UTC-5 Ira wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Brian, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Friday, April 23, 2021, 6:04:49 PM, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Alternatively these relays can be repaired. It’s a bit of a >>>>>>>>>>> specialty thing, and requires practice soldering. I know there’s a >>>>>>>>>>> few guys >>>>>>>>>>> on here who mentioned doing it and they may be able to help with >>>>>>>>>>> that/more >>>>>>>>>>> info on how to do it. >>>>>>>>>>> Soldering the relay is easy, without the proper tools, getting >>>>>>>>>>> the old one out without damaging the board is hard. Now that I have >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> proper tool, it's not hard at all. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- Ira >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Brewtus" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brewtus/c1b0252a-3f7a-4aa7-aa3d-2e0a4ac3d101n%40googlegroups.com.
