Joshua Bell schreef:
> Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >I'd love to vote to make participation in politics a voluntary job, take the
> money
> >out of it. To asure survival to the politician, he wouldn't get paid more
> then
> >minimum wage, and only for those hours spent on the job. Also he'd get not a
> penny
> >more then was actually laid out for simple expenses. Alas I also see a lot of
>
> >problems rising from a government of mere amateurs.
>
> Are you proposing this in a representative democracy? How would that even
> work?
> Most of the people who aren't elected officials aren't paid nearly as well
> as those specifically selected by the people they represent. The
> decision-makers - whom we, the people, selected to make decisions for us,
> are the few politicians. If you're proposing that they be made volunteers -
> that is, if we vote you into office, you don't get paid - then you open the
> flood gates up to control by the very rich, who can "donate" a hell of a lot
> more than the poor.
A I said I can see a hell of a lot of problems rising from that kind of
government. I'm not stupid, but if I see politicians dig into one hell of a
buffet with champagne and the hole shebang, that was casually arranged for a
lunch meeting where they squabble over whether or not they should spent 0.2%
more on social budget, my stomage starts to turn.
> I'm not going to vote for anyone stupid enough to take a massive pay cut. :)
Why not? What if that person isn't in it for the money. They still exist. Rare
species but there are some left.
> Everyone else in the governmental machine is paid a salary - and already
> below what those people could make in industry.
Yeah, that is why they have all those really fancy seats on boards and
commisions in the industry to make a bit more on the side. That kind of stuff
really makes me fume. Most people aren't allowed to do that, in order to prevent
conflict of interests. It is only allowed to the already rather high payed guys
and girls.
> >On a more realistic note, I think the biggest problem in politics as far as I
> can
> >see it, is that lots of regulations that are rigorously and without any form
> of
> >mercy applied to the general populace are not applied to our governmental
> force,
> >because they are 'special / better / irriplaceble ?!'.
>
> Example?
OK, but just a few.
If I don't do my work properly according to my boss I get fired in no time. If
some one in government office is a total ass he cannot get fired unless what he
does is illegal.
If I get fired I get 70% of minimum wages if I hadn't been working for at least
52 days in the last 4 out of 5 years. My income in that case is calculated to
the average I made over the total amount of time worked, taking into account the
number of hours I worked a week.(I can live with that, but) A government
official gets 80% of his last pay irrespective of the number of days hours or
years he has worked for the government.
If I work in a foreign country and have a second homebase there in order to not
keep travelling every day I pay taxes in that country (which is OK) but also a
much higher tax for the city I live in because I'm not a resident. Also I get a
cut in social securtity (f.i. a cut in my state pension) from my home country
which amounts to 2% for each year worked abroad unless I also pay for social
security over my entire income in my homecountry ( which is app. 24 % of my
income). If a government official does the same he is exempted from all taxes
and pays only the income and social tax in his home country.
Also if I do have a second homebase in another country during the week to do my
work, even if I return home every week-end I risk loosing my resident status
(I'm German with a resident status in the Netherlands) in my home country, if I
stay abroad more then 187 days a year. This happens automaticly, unless I can
prove that my social and economic tyes in the resident country are significant
enough to warrent further resident status (Lucky for me I'm married). (loads of
paperwork). A government official doesn't have that problem since he is exempted
from that rule.
If I have to travel a lot for my job I get paid by my boss for the expense made
(then I have to pay tax over that amount recieved) or I get a tax cut that is
really rediculess in view of the expense I had to make. If a government official
does the same he gets a full restitution and doesn't have to pay any taxes over
the amount recieved. No in some cases he even gets a bonus for inconvenience,
free of tax.
I could continue this list for ever but it is this kind of things that isn't
widely known and that irks me a lot.
This is EU stuff but I'm sure that if you check the US carefully you'll probably
find dozens of those really neat rules that exempt or benefit government
officials only. You'll never trip over those unless you take a better look at
the rules. I just have a nag to bump into these kinds of things because I always
get myself into situations where those darn things apply to me but not to them
bloody officials.
> >I really think that that
> >should change. Let them live under exactly the same rules and regulations
> >as we
> >do, with the same modest wages and without all that 'schnik schnak' that
> >'goes
> >with the job'.
>
> So pay them less than they'd make if they weren't in the government? What's
> the incentive?
Idealism. But as I said I can see that there are a lot of problems with that.
And I still don't think it's feasible.
> >Let them be annoyed at having to stand in line for a meal,
>
> Hmmm.... I don't think politicians over here get special "cut to the front
> of the line" cards at McDonalds.
>
LOL, no they don't have to stand in line, they usually get catered food. Ever
seen a politician stand in line for his food except at a buffet?
> >a busticket or a seat on the plane.
>
> Erm... don't you order these on the phone? And anyone with a secretary (you
> do want them focusing on politics, right, not minutia?) should be delegating
> that sort of thing.
Most can use a special government plane, we don't fly that much as you US
people. And they don't have to stand in line to get their luggage ckecked in or
out. :o)
> >Let them get angry over being caught up in traffic every day
>
> I'm sure they are. There aren't special "politician only" lanes over here.
No, but they get paid so much that over here they can easily afford to move
somewhere more practical for their job so they usually don't have to travel far.
They even get compensation for moving.
> >and the unworkabillity of stupid tax rules.
>
> That's what accountants are for. Over here, they're really cheap.
Over here it is rather ridiculous to pay an accountant to do your taxes. It is
simplified enough so that average people can easily do it themselves. The less
then average get free help at the tax desks. So there is not really a market for
accountants. I only have an average income and really could spent my money
better. But I don't have a choice since everything got rather complicated when I
started work in Belgium and my income bumped into national and international
rules. So I need an accountant lawyer to do the stuff for me. Rather hilarious
for Europeen standards.
> >...of which I'm also not such a big fan. So we keep on tumbling along,
> >untill
> >humanity becomes a bit more mature and finally grows out of it's childish
> >sandbox
> >mentality.
>
> Which is what? What is it that you view as the ultimate stable state for
> humanity (or neo-humanity)?
Sandbox mentality: Well ever watched a sandbox with two small kids in it and
just one really nice toy? The only thing both kids want is that toy even if it
breaks in the process.
But I was more thinking along the lines of that one rule. IAAMOAC
> The future of "1984" comes to mind, where you're gently reminded by other
> members of society how not to rock the boat and fit in, and to contribute to
> the welfare of everyone.
People should do that by themselves. Live and let live, but not over the backs
of others. If I see some politicians at work, presenting their phoney smiles and
fake handshakes, I'm strongly reminded of piranhas fighting over the best bites.
But that of course is just me. ;o)
Sonja
