John D. Giorgis wrote:
>At 06:44 PM 5/23/01 +1200 K.Feete wrote:
>>Dear sweet God. "The evil, genocidal, empires of the Axis"? "The entire
>>World threatened?" "dark shadows of communism?" You sound like you're
>>selling me a computer game. And not a particularly good one.
>
>Not surprising, given that everything I have to say directly conflicts with
>your usually misanthropic view of American life in general. I'm sure it
>must really eat you up inside to think that America has actually
>accomplished *anything* that actually benefited humanity.
First off, I'm not a misanthrope. A skeptic, yes, but not a hater of
humanity.
Second, I know perfectly well that America has many accomplishments to be
proud of. There's women's sufferage, for example- I believe we were the
first to give women the vote, which I am far more proud of than all the
trinkets and moon-landings you list. There is the popularization (not
creation, note, just popularization) of democracy as a living, breathing,
working system of government. I have stated, on this list, on numerous
occasions, that I am proud of my country. Admittedly, I usually qualify
it with a "but". I consider this realism, not misanthropy.
And you still sound like a B-grade movie. Let me give you a hint: they
tend to be characterized by an unbelievably clear line between good and
evil and a one-sided view of their subject matter....
>It amazes me that you can be so completely ignorant about so many thing,
>and yet so confident about the peculiarities of your particular worldview.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
> I'd like to think that someplace in your education you may have learned
>about some things like what life was like in an occupied country during
>World War II. What life was like for a Gypsy, a Manchurian, a resident
>of the Warsaw ghetto, a young Korean woman, or a European Jew. I'd like to
>think that you know something about what happened to the Ukrainians under
>Stalin, or the Chinese during Mao's Cultural Revolution, or the Cambodians
>under Pol Pot, or the dissidents of the Prague Spring. Maybe I shouldn't
>be surprised that you don't much of what it's like to be a Tibetan or an
>Uighur in China today (it seems that not many do), or what life must have
>been like in Easter Europe to drive someone to the insanity of trying to
>cross the Berlin Wall.
Now *this* I *resent.* For God's sake, John, how many times have I yelled
about injustice and human suffering on this list?! Have you *ever* heard
me say a good word about a dictator? And, yes, I *do* have some concept
about all these things. I haven't lived them (and I daresay you haven't
either), but I have read books about Hitler's occupation and accounts of
those caught in the death-camps and the gas chambers. I have read some of
the beautiful banned books that came out of the Soviet Union under Stalin
(though not enough- and if anyone every comes across a copy of Zamyatin's
We I *want* it.) I have *met* Tibetans- just recently- at this school-
and I've met Chinese, too, and residents of Hong Kong, bitter over their
loss of freedom. I've seen movies of what China was like under Mao, and
what China is like now, and the very small difference between the two. I
was required, for my school curriculum, to read all these things, as well
as accounts of the Japanese in confinement camps and picture-books of
Vietnam and stories from Hiroshima. Don't you ever, *ever*, EVER tell me
again that I have no concept of suffering.
I have also read accounts of the bombing of Britain- a bombing we did
nothing to stop- not until we were bombed ourselves. How can we possibly
claim responsibility for winning WWII, John? We didn't sacrifice a damned
thing until we had to, and even then we never lost so much as the Brits
did, stubborn and fierce in the face of an enemy that was all around
them. What does it *matter* that it was we who turned the tide? They gave
all they had and could not turn the tide: are we therefore to be more
proud than they? Shall we claim this as an American victory, something to
be proud- nay, arrogant- of?
>Yeah, Woo Hoo. Talk to someone who knows what it was like to live in
>Paris 60 years ago. Talk to someone who's family was liberated by
>Americans from a Nazi Death Camp. Talk to someone who survived the
>Philippines or the Solomon Islands 60 years ago.
>
>Go ahead mock *them* for the appreciation that *they* have for our American
>forces.
Sure, I will, and be proud- for a little while. Then I will go talk to
the Japanese couple who saw their child raped and no restitution, and the
survivors of Hirishoma, and the cripple on the streets of Saigon, and the
Bosnian whose land is now untouchable for generations, and the Iraqi who
lost half his family to the Great Oil War and still languishes under a
dictator, abandoned by the Americans who promised freedom. And then I
will be humble.
There are as many who resent "our boys" as praise them. Always. That is
the price of war.
>What is really most frustrating about your ignorance of history, however,
>is your ignorance of the tremendous ethical advances America has
>contributed to human civilization. After World War II, America made
>history by choosing *not* to punish the greatest enemies we had ever faced.
> In all of human history, when great enemies were defeated, the victors
>either salted the earth or turned the defeated into vassals. The United
>States, however, instead turned its defeated enemies, Germany and Japan,
>into vibrant, independent, and thriving nations of their own.
Okay, we can be proud of this. And then maybe we can remember that it was
in the same peace talks that we turned away a representative of the
Vietnamese government asking for support from America. And we can still
be proud- but more cautiously.
>The ethical advances of the United States continue even to this day.
>Three years ago, America announced the "Clinton Doctrine." For the first
>time, we declared that free nations have a right to intervene in the
>territories of other sovereign nations, in order to protect minorities from
>grave abuses of human rights - even when those same free nations cannot
>intervene on behalf of all oppressed minorities.
And then we gave China, probably the greatest human rights abuser of the
world, "most favored nation" status in order not to sacrifice any of our
economic pleasures. Woo Hoo. Bowl of riced hypocricy, anyone?
>>This isn't fact: this is opinion. We probably win music (although England
>>might- they've still got *tons* of credit left over from Clapton and the
>>Beatles), we are basically the only people who make movies so we get that
>>one too, but we certainly don't get theatre, John. What America are you
>>living in, anyway? I've seen more good theatre in three months here than
>>I did in 19 years in America.
>
>All of that is your opinion.
Yup.
> I am basing my analysis on what music,
>theatre, and movies the *all* people of the world most want to see and
>hear.
You mean, Shakespeare?
>(P.S. Most
>countries, are, in fact producing movies. Did you know Mexico has a movie
>industry? - Its based in Guadalajara. The simple fact, however, is that
>the people of the world demand our movies.)
I know that; I've seen several foreign movies, and they're pretty damn
good. They don't have the advertising power to sell well, though.
>>Believe it or not, I'm also pretty proud of America. I think we're an
>>innovative people; I think we're tough; and I think we're perfectionists,
>>always pushing to go just a little further and be a little better.
>
>Wow, a Brin-L first, Kat says something nice about America!!! ;-) But
>if you are proud of America, how can you also think that there is "not much
>reason" for being arrogant?"
Because pride is very, very different than arrogance. Pride can be
tempered with a dose of humility. Arrogance says humility is bull. Why
should I be humble? I'm the best!
>That's changing the debate. I'm not arguing whether we *should* be
>arrogant, or whether it is *just* that we are arrogant. I'm just arguing
>that there are *reasons* for being arrogant.
Er, yeah. There's always reasons to be arrogant. So? *Madmen* are
arrogant, John. Serial frekkin' killers are the most arrogant bastards
you'll ever see. They've got plenty of reason to be. But it doesn't mean
they're proud of what they've done, and it sure as hell doesn't make it
right.
>>And, besides, believing you're
>>the center of the universe is so... immature.
>
>But, being at the center of the universe doesn't mean that the rest of the
>universe doesn't exist...... BUt that's another argument.......
You probably woulda killed Galileo. <grin>
Kat Feete
-----------------------------
Of course, it is very important to be sober when you take an exam.
Many worthwhile careers in the street-cleansing, fruit-picking and
subway-guitar-playing industries have been founded on a lack of
understanding of this simple fact.
- Terry Pratchett
