At 12:13 PM 5/24/01 +1200 K.Feete wrote:
>And you still sound like a B-grade movie. Let me give you a hint: they
>tend to be characterized by an unbelievably clear line between good and
>evil and a one-sided view of their subject matter....
It is worth at least mentioning that you set up the debate in these terms.
You said that there was "not much reason" for Americans to be arrogant.
You did not say that "despite America's many accomplishments, these people
seem amazingly unaware of all the reasons for Americans to be humble."
Indeed, as you wrote later:
>>That's changing the debate. I'm not arguing whether we *should* be
>>arrogant, or whether it is *just* that we are arrogant. I'm just arguing
>>that there are *reasons* for being arrogant.
>
>Er, yeah. There's always reasons to be arrogant. So? *Madmen* are
>arrogant, John. Serial frekkin' killers are the most arrogant bastards
>you'll ever see. They've got plenty of reason to be. But it doesn't mean
>they're proud of what they've done, and it sure as hell doesn't make it
>right.
That's precisely what you argued, though, Kat - that there was "not much
reason" to be arrogant. So, you admit that you were incorrect?
Back to the beginning........
>>It amazes me that you can be so completely ignorant about so many thing,
>>and yet so confident about the peculiarities of your particular worldview.
>
>Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
I, at least, claim to know what I am talking about. You, however,
cheerfully admit to your ignorance while holding virulent opinions about
the selfsame subjects.
>They gave
>all they had and could not turn the tide: are we therefore to be more
>proud than they? Shall we claim this as an American victory,
At no point did I compare American sacrifices to British sacrifices. At
no point did I say that we should be "more proud" than they. At no point
did I say that this should be claimed as an American victory.
All I ever said was that our contributions were something that we should be
proud of.
Let me put this in perspective for you. If you go to the Korean War
Memorial in Washington, D.C. - you will see a poignant tribute to all those
who gave their lives for "A Land They Never Knew, and a People They Never
Met."
Oh yes, and I should point out, that the Korean War Memorial pays tribute
to the contribution of every country to the effort, no matter how small.
Luxembourg stands next to the United States, and Thailand stands next to
South Korea itself.
>There are as many who resent "our boys" as praise them. Always. That is
>the price of war.
You have *no* evidence for that. You really think that the Bosniacs
resent us? I'm not going to debate the ethics of depleted uranium, but
suffice to say, the Bosniacs also recognize that they were being
systematically exterminated by the Serbs, and we were the ones who saved
them.
Personally, I will take all of the Europeans who are indebted to us for
their freedom. I will take the Kuwaitis, and Koreans, and Philippinos,
and Pacific Islanders whose countries we liberated. I will take the
Israelis and Turks and Saudis who consider us vital allies for the security
of their country. And I will take the millions of Chinese, and Iranians,
and Burmese, and other freedom-loving dissidents everywhere who see us as a
symbol of liberty. I will take all those and stack them up against the
unfortunate victims in Iraq, Vietnam, and Japan and elsewhere of our
mistakes. And after considering the two, I will proudly proclaim that
they are *not* equal - that America has been a positive force of net GOOD
in the world. And that it is precisely this goodness that lets us admit
our mistakes and continually strive to improve them.
Finally..... let me return to a previous quote:
>Now *this* I *resent.* For God's sake, John, how many times have I yelled
>about injustice and human suffering on this list?! Have you *ever* heard
>me say a good word about a dictator? Don't you ever, *ever*, EVER tell me
>again that I have no concept of suffering.
Oooh, Kat, you sound *so* indignant! It would be nice, however, if you
could connect the disparate pieces of your fractured logic.
Allow me to refresh your memory:
>>Dear sweet God. "The evil, genocidal, empires of the Axis"? "The entire
>>World threatened?" "dark shadows of communism?" You sound like you're
>>selling me a computer game. And not a particularly good one.
Help me out here Kat - but aren't you mocking me calling the Axis "evil,
genocidal." And aren't you mocking me saying that the entire world was
threatened by "communism."
And let me refresh your memory again:
>>And even if you're completely, utterly, irrifutably historically correct
>>on this one:
>>
>>We can kill people really well. Woo Hoo.
Personally, I take this as a direct insult to the millions of Americans who
gave their lives in the defense of freedom, justice, and human rights.
Were you insulted by what I said about you above my reposting of your
quotes?
Good.
Because at least here, I know you'll read the stuff that I write, and then
you'll have the chance to fire back with some appropriately snippy remark
of your own.
But what about the millions of dead Americans who gave so much more than
you ever have in defense of those causes? What about them, Kat? How
can they respond to your mockings?
God Bless Your Soul, Kat, that those men and women died so that you would
have the right to loudly proclaim opinions on matters you happily declare
yourself ignorant about, and then mock them for making the ultimate
sacrifice to give you that right.
JDG
__________________________________________________________
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ #3527685
"The point of living in a Republic after all, is that we do not live by
majority rule. We live by laws and a variety of institutions designed
to check each other." -Andrew Sullivan 01/29/01
