----- Original Message -----
From: J. van Baardwijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Pride and Arrogance Re: American Attitudes (wasRe:Hardworking?)
> At 22:01 1-6-01 -0400, John Giorgis wrote:
>
> >At 06:00 PM 5/29/01 +0200 J. van Baardwijk wrote:
> > >producing way to many decibels in conversations.
> >
> >This has nothing to do with arrogance, and everything to do with cultural
> >differences.
>
> I wrote "[..] Americans whose behaviour abroad can only be described as
> arrogant and loudmouthed". I think it's rather obvious that "producing way
> to many decibels" goes in the "loudmouthed" category, not the "arrogant"
> category.
>
> Anyway, cultural differences are not an excuse for being loudmouthed when
> you're a tourist from an other country. When you visit an other country
> (either as a tourist or on business) you are a guest in an other people's
> country; it's nothing more than common decency to behave yourself
according
> to their customs.
This attitude is very different from the attitude in the United States.
First, though let me give a general observation,. It is virtually impossible
to change habits of a lifetime in just a few days. It seems, from what you
wrote, that you feel you accomplished this while you were in Thailand.
However, I would guess that the people where you visited would have a far
keener sense of your variance from local practice than you do. I'm not
faulting you for this, I just think it is a part of human nature.
Second, since the U.S. is a nation of immigrants, we have a great gauge of
how long it really takes for the prevalant local customs to be fully
accepted. I'd say at least 3 generations. When I was growing up, the
cultural variations that exist throughout Europe could be seen in the
neighborhoods of one American city (say Milwaukee, Wisconsin). In Duluth,
Minnesota, where I grew up, there are Catholic churches within a mile of
each other. 100 years ago they were the German, French, and Polish
Catholic churches, with sermons were preached in those languages. Even
now, you can see the variety of customs in a city based on the county of
origin of the inhabitants of a certain area 100 years ago. These relatively
minor variations in customs are fairly well accepted here.
Also, as other posters have mentioned, the US is sufficiently large to have
important regional variation. Texans are considered loud and brash in New
England, and New Englanders are considered cold and aloof by Texans.
Looking at the shorter term, I would like to give the example of graduate
student housing at the University of Wisconsin. Most people there were
non-Americans. They certainly did not adopt US customs and manners. They,
for the most part, kept the customs of their native countries. We would not
have expected anything else.
What they did do was adapt to the customs of the US and accept them as a
valid set of customs for us. Therein, I think, is the main difference.
People moving here permananty are expected to make a good strong attempt at
accomodating US customs. Learning English is a big part of this. But,
businesses that expect a significant fraction of their traffic to come from
the Spanish speaking population, do write "se habla Espanol" in their ads to
promote Hispanic traffic.
Having said that, Hispanics are not expected to drop their customary way of
speaking and acting as the price of becoming American. It is probably true
that, in business settings, that they change more than the businesses do.
However, if the immigrant population is large enough, the customs of the US
change to reflect their contribution.
People visiting for just a few years are expected to adapt less. If they
are going to the university, they have to know English. But, if they are
the spouse, than they can learn as much as they want. It does help to learn
English if you life here a few years, but it is not a requirement. While in
graduate student housing, the main cultural difference that was not
tolerated was the raising and killing of chickens in the apartements. That,
I think, was reasonable.
But, for the most part, their keeping of their native customs was perfectly
acceptable. All that was really required for good manners was adaptation to
the fact that US customs are what they are. That, and being willing to
celebrate the 4th of July with us. The international 4th of July parade at
the graduate student housing was great. It was a gesture of good will, like
putting on party hats for a birthday.
> When you have guests in your house, wouldn't you expect them to live by
> your rules while they are there?
>
In the sense of this discussion, the answer would be a definite no. If you
come and visit, I would not expect you to behave like a member of my family
or to follow the rules of behavior that are unique to this house. In
America, that's considered rude. I would expect you to make some
accommodations, just as I expect us to make some accommodations for you.
For example, when we know we have vegetarians visiting, we don't expect them
to eat meat, we prepare enough veggie food for them to be comfortable eating
here. We consider that hospitality.
Indeed, if you are able to come to the US, come as you are. You are
welcome, even if you aren't like us. (Although the us in the US is varied
enough so there is plenty of room to fit in.) I would only suggest that you
refrain from publicly and insistantly proclaiming how bad the US is while
visiting. Saying that you like the way you do things better is just fine.
Arguing with friends about US politics is certainly OK too. Just don't walk
into a working class bar and say the US and USSR are equivalent.
Dan M.
