----- Original Message ----- From: "Baardwijk, J. van DTO/SLWPD/RZO/BOZO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:16 AM Subject: RE: Scouted: Commentary: Why Europe Sides Against the Jews / time.com
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Verzonden: woensdag 24 april 2002 6:53 > > Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Onderwerp: RE: Scouted: Commentary: Why Europe Sides Against the Jews / > > time.com > > > Your English is also good enough to know that I didn't do that - I said > > "European bigots" <> "All European[s] are bigots." > > However, you make such sweeping generalizations about Europeans that the > distinction is easily lost. > > > > > France was almost as enthusiastic about killing its Jews as Germany > > > was. Every country in Europe was, save Britain, of course. > > That is oversimplifying the matter. Europe was under German occupation, > which means the Germans were in charge. Was the Dutch government > "enthusiastic about killing Jews"? No, because their was no real Dutch > government present. When Germany invaded The Netherlands, the government > went into exile in Great Britain. What subsequently passed for government in > the country was nothing but a Nazi collaborator put in place by the Nazis. Gautam's point, which I know to be well documented for France, is that the Vichie government was a true representation of the response of the French people to the actions by the Germans. I think I told the story of a houseguest of mine who was invited to join the Communist party. He politely declined, saying he'd be interested in doing it later. He was an example of the footdragging people in the Soviet Union did. Other examples were the failure to effectively work. While the actions of the refusenicks were much more heroic than my friend's actions, I would submit that the minimal passive resistance of the millions of folks like my friends were what really threw sand in the gears of the Communists. I believe that Gautam's point is that even this foot dragging did not exist in Europe. If my friend could face down the Communist party and the KGB, then the excuse that it was the Nazis and the SS doesn't hold much water. Indeed, all the locals had to do was be less enthusiastic in cooperating with the Nazi's extermination. > > The help from the French government was inexcusable, but it is not evidence > that the *vast mass* of the European population helped the Germans. That's true. But, very few did much of anything at all to stop the murder of the Jews. The government of the Netherlands, for example, could have been much less cooperative in turning over names of Jews. The local people could forget where they lived. People could point out that this or that particular Jew had an important job which helped the Nazi war effort. Why didn't y'all fight the Nazi occupation as did the Serbs and the Russians? >As in > any war, there were a number of citizens who collaborated with the Nazis, > but most people were not. (If the vast majority had been collaborators, > Europe would probably still be ruled by the Germans.) How do you figure that? The Western European underground had virtually no military value at all. > If the US were occupied by Canada to rid the Northern American continent > from, say, the Asian population, would the vast majority of American > civilians actively fight against the Canadians? I doubt it. You don't understand the United States at all, then. >Some of them would join the resistance movement and some would collaborate with Canada, > but most people would simply try to stay alive. Maybe you would gladly try > to get near whoever the Canadians put in charge and then blow yourself (and > him/her) up, but most people would not. Almost all would, at the very least, quietly subvert the government. You know, be as helpful as the department of motor vehicles. At least a sizeable number would take up arms. Most would help to hide the fighters. There are a number of ways to resist. As Gautam said, people did resist the Nazis, it's just that the Western Europeans didn't. Indeed, there are many gradations of resistance between the actions of the Serbs and Russians and those of Western Europe. A very good question is why was there such a vast difference in the degree of resistance to the Nazis. Dan M.
