On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, J. van Baardwijk wrote:

> First you make a highly subjective judgement, and then you go on to say I
> should not worry about the proof. See, now *that* is something I find
> worrying. When someone makes that kind of claims, they do that because they
> know they will not be able to provide that proof when asked for it. So, I
> will ask you again: how many of my approx. 2,600 messages to this list
> indicate that I am a "medium level asshole"?

Not all, I'll grant.  It's an intermittent but chronic and recurring
problem.  Like herpes sores.

And you're correct to note that it's a highly subjective judgement.  It's
a social judgement, which means that not only is it highly subjective,
it's also arbitrary and to a certain degree unfair in its arbitrariness.
A winking pink sphinchter to one person might be a hero to another.  Maybe
the majority of Brin-L think you are heroic for punishing them with spam
as a tactic to pressure them into putting pressure on Erik in turn.

Do I care?  Not really.  I've decided that the only rational course is to
state my mind in order to try to get what I want.  I encourage everyone
else to do the same.  If I'm wrong, well, those are the risks.  Am I
myself a WPS?  Lemme know, online or off, whatever pleases you.  I'm
aware that simply engaging Jeroen in this conversation is a sign of
serious WPS-like tendencies.

I want civility, but I do not want a list that has a feeling of forced
friendliness while we all walk on eggshells around Mr. Victim.  We've
tried that.  It doesn't work.  It's not fun.  I want everyone to think
about what they want and think about what they're willing to do to get
it.  I especially want people to *say* what they want, and what they're
willing to do to get it.  How can we possibly cooperate if we're all too
"civil" and too flame-shy to speak frankly about what we want?  How can we
even know one another well enough to call ourselves a "community" if we're
not willing to say what seems obvious to us?

I'm willing to put up with a lot of strangeness from the 9th dimension
[eg. Mark] in order to demonstrate tolerence.  I'm not willing to allow
myself to be conditioned into docility by the desire to avoid another
listmember's temper, however.

We know what Mr. Victim is willing to do to get his way.  What about the
rest of us?

Maybe I'm overreacting and soon everybody will return to business as
usual.  Perhaps a mailing list simply isn't worth the grief.  That's cool.
At least I won't be stewing about what I might have said or might have done.

> BTW, I do not recall any messages with the words "I agree" in reply to you
> calling me a "medium level asshole". So I do not think I really have to
> worry about how many people might agree with you -- it looks like there are
> very few people who do.

Call it like you see it, dude.  It's the best we can do.

> Yeah, well, personal attacks do tend to limit my display of my sense of
> humour. Given that from where you are sitting you are getting the wrong
> impression about my sense of humour and my judgement skills, maybe you
> should go sit somewhere else.

Or maybe the real-life Jeroen, the one with the people skills, should be
allowed on-list instead of you?

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas

There ain't no Devil; there's just God when he's drunk.
   -- Tom Waits

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