I thought I sent this, but it hasn't shown up, so if
this is a re-post, sorry.

--- Jan Coffey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip> 

> Esentialy we seem to agree on the facts and how
> things have played out. What
> we disagree on was the appropriatness of the actions
> that were taken concerning "spin". 
> 
> As such I would like to continto focus more closely
> on this part, if you don't mind.

<rubs hands together gleefully>
Talking about talking?  Oh, goody!
 
> What I find amazing is that I am allways on the
> other side of this dicotomy
> when it comes to person-to-person communication. 

You touched upon this in an earlier post.
 
> At times I wish people would just get the Gist of
> what I other mean and not
> pick apart the details which are often due to
> misspeaking. It's not allways
> that one don't know, sometimes one might just pull
> out the wrong words.

What I notice about email, as much as I enjoy the
List, is that as _conversation_ it is lacking ~1/4+ (I
am _so_ guessing this figure!) of the communication
that occurs in face-to-face interactions.  Body
language, facial expression and tone-of-voice can
enhance, reinforce, shade/nuance, and even reverse or
negate the words spoken.  Emoticons are a pale shadow
of this vibrant non-verbal signaling.  For me
especially, both by nature (I have 'always' been
empathic) and training (observation is vital to
medical personnel), this void hampers my ability to
understand what is actually *meant* rather than just
what is being *written.*

And of course reading posts while sleep-deprived or
stressed-out doesn't help either.  :P

Somewhat tangentially: regarding your
'opposite-sidedness' in person-to-person
communication: how are you at interpreting the
desires/intentions/forthcoming actions of domestic
animals (dogs, cats etc.), whose communication is of
course totally non-verbal?  (but not non-vocal)  Or
getting them to understand yours?

> At the same time, I hold no negative assment of Bush
> et. al. for spinning as I
> see spinning a requirment to communicate with and
> perswade the American
> public. The emergent properties of this appears
> controdictory. "Listen to
> what I mean not what I say" "Listen to what I say
> not what it sounds like I
> mean". The key to the differnece is in the use of
> logic and recognizing
> mistakes rather than recognizing spin.

As you said earlier, many people seem to be too lazy,
distracted or uncritical of what they hear and read. 
I don't know how to correct that except by teaching
critical thinking in school (I suppose some private
schools do this).  So one question is, should our
government look upon its constituency as PT Barnum
would, or as sheep to be led, or wolves who are
content to follow-the-leaders but might turn upon them
and tear them up if sufficiently angered?

Transparency and accountability lessen the State's
predatory abilities; both of these principles have
been under attack by the current admin, IMO.  Which in
turn has led to my distrust of their motives in just
about every arena.  One of the dangers to 'the
spinners' is that if *enough* people become aware of
excessive manipulative spin, they might revile and
attack those who twist critical truth.  Or disbelieve
*anything* the spin-mongers say because of the prior
perceived manipulation(s).

In looking at health-related studies, one has to be
aware of the bias(es) of the investigating group or
institution, who funded it, and what agenda(s) they
have.  Of course we don't call it "spin," but those
who attempt to suppress data or retrospectively change
parameters of their study are castigated if/when the
misdirection is discovered.  As well they ought to be.
So one of *my* fundamental precepts is that in matters
of great import, presentation of data and conclusions
therefrom needs and ought to be unbiased, with
interpretation(s) clearly stated as such.

<wry aside> Working with a law office has
been...interesting. (and these are non-advertising,
'take a case only if it's clearly winable' kind of
guys)  ;}

Now in non-vital matters, "white lies" and "spin" are
to be expected -- frequently I still find it annoying,
but must admit to using both!
 
> I am interested in your take on person to person
> comunication, what you think
> would have been the most appropriate action taken by
> Bush et. al., and how
> the spin doctors from their oposition could have
> been delt with without
> resorting themselves to any degree of "spin"/

First part: answered, at least partially, above.  I do
think that a certain degree of "white lying/spin" is
necessary to keep social interactions smoother.  Frex:
a friend, obviously pleased with her new purchase,
asks you at a party how you like her new dress.  Do
you say , "All those ruffles - I'm thinking: "potato
chips," and that shade of yellow makes you look like a
zombie!" or "Oh, so Victorian is back "in" now?  You
know, I think that green&blue scarf of yours would
*really* contrast nicely with the yellow..."  But if
you're shopping with her, you can say when she tries
it on, "Mmm, I don't think it does anything good for
your shoulders....nah, not a keeper."  Yup, spin is
needed here fer sure!  ;)

Second part: I've given my 'ideal actions taken' in
several prior posts; in "DebbiWorld" things would have
been done much more diplomatically from the beginning
of his Admin!  ;)  <serious>  After 9-11, there was so
much goodwill and sympathy for the US; here was a
chance for Bush to reverse his prior arrogance and
isolationism, to say 'we need your help - your ideas,
your intelligence - to make sure this doesn't happen
again to any country.'  Now that does have some spin,
particularly WRT the "not again" part -- because
terrorists will strike (and have struck, frex Bali) in
the future.  Under-the-table arm-wrenching might have
convinced France, Germany, Russia to be more
supportive - or at least stand aside. I think there
would have been a reasonable chance for this to work,
given the fact that a good resolution *did* get passed
despite the hostility these countries had towards the
Bush Admin last fall.  If it didn't, then report how
their economic interests in Iraq have contributed to
major suffering for the Iraqi people and others
(although perhaps that wasn't done because of the
backfire potential WRT US involvement/support of Iraq
in the '80's [1]).  Or state with noble conviction 
that 'now we understand all too well what you in
Europe/the Middle East/wherever have suffered from
terrorist attacks; we did not, before.  And we will
not allow a few to keep us -or you- in the role of
victim.  Our strength will serve as a bulwark between
those who support terrorists, and the innocent of the
world.  We will go were they hide, and root them
out..." etc etc etc, enforce the Resolution etc
<grimace>  But I still haven't seen convincing
evidence that Iraq was a direct threat to the US.

Third part: I'm truly not trying to cop-out here, but
I didn't hear what groups like ANSWER (was that it?)
said, except for snippets on this List, so I can't
address this adequately.  If anyone knows a site
listing the major 'spins,' I'll at least read it. 
Offhand, showing one's nobility, self-sacrifice and
concern for the 'innocent of the world' ought to go a
long way to countering unfavorable spin.  But having
hospitals looted while the Ministry of Oil was
protected does *not* help WRT the 'Blood for Oil'
angle!

Debbi
who can spin as well as the next person... ;)

[1] I'm still surprised that no-one (IIRC) commented
on my posting Congressional Hearing evidence of US
support of the Iraqi bioweapons capability, including
training an Iraqi scientist at the CDC...


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