From: Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
--- Jon Gabriel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't have friends in Iraq. Why does that matter? > Gautam, what exactly > is the point you're trying to make with this last > sentence?
The point is to guard against the inevitable next argument - that I don't care about the American soldiers who are dying. I do care, deeply. But that doesn't make the deaths evidence of failure.
Actually it sounded like you were accusing Bob of saying exactly that. He was, after all, saying that the war had been started based on lies and therefore was unjustified. (At least, that was my read on it.)
> > >But that isn't exactly a > >catastrophe. If Bush had really been lying, then > it > >would not at all be unpatriotic to criticize him. > > Criticize him?!? If Bush had really lied to > Congress so he could initiate > an unjustified war, it would be more appropriate for > us to push for his > *impeachment* and felony prosecution under US law. > Time will tell.
I would say that it already has told plenty, actually. The nuclear weapons plans _by themselves_ were a gross violation of the UN sanctions.
I was under the impression that from their presence we inferred that Hussein was going to build WMD's, but not that the plans themelves were a violation of the UN sanctions. I read 1441 (http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02110803.htm) and didn't see any indication that Iraq wasn't supposed to have plans for weapons, just that they were supposed to account for them. I didn't start a review of every resolution pertaining to them because I don't have the time. Do you happen to know which resolution says that they can't possess that knowledge or if any does?
So far, we've found two labs that might or might not have been used for legitimate purposes. We found a collection of, I believe, less than 30 missiles that could go an addition 20-50 miles than they were supposed to. We've found metal tubes that could be used for legal and illegal purposes. We haven't found any evidence of the toxic chemicals or plutonium. IMO, nothing terribly compelling or damaging has been located yet.
> > I'm still glad Hussein's gone.
Well, good. It puts you one up on Howard Dean, apparently. >
I've decided not to pay any attention to the Democratic candidates this time around until a couple of clear frontrunners emerge. Saves me time and energy. :)
I've explained why onlist before, but there's no doubt in my mind that Hussein's regime needed to go.
> By the way, we're still waiting for evidence to turn > up of the materials the > President mentioned in his State of the Union: > > 25,000 liters of anthrax > 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin > 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agents > > Evidence of these and other weapons (or of their > destruction) would provide > proof to the world that Hussein and his regime had > violated UN resolution > 1441 -- the original reason we went to war. Right > now, the only evidence > that's been released seems to have been minor > violations.
Ah. Oops. I should correct this: Iraq was in violation of 1441 and no proof of that is required. They were supposed to account to the UN for the materials listed here and did not.
All of these materials, though, were listed _by the UN_ in their reports. That wasn't confidential material that people could accuse Bush of making up. That was stuff that _everyone agreed_ the Iraqis had.
Yes, and before the war, Iraq said something along the lines of 'We got rid of them, but didn't keep the records.'
Everyone agreed that the Iraqis had been in possession of such material at one time and that it was currently unaccounted for. Not everyone agreed the Iraqis were still in possession of it, iirc, including the Canadians and the French.
At most you can say that every intelligence agency on the planet was fooled. Arguing that Bush lied based on that is simply dishonest.
I'm making no such argument. I am however, still waiting for the evidence of these materials to be uncovered.
Jon
Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com
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