--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jan Coffey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:41 PM > Subject: Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and a an Un- reasonable view. > > > & other posts on this topic to boot. > > > > 1) Your doing it again, and this time, you are smothering a perfectly > > resonable discussion on this human reaction which needs a name, with > > a frivilous and debatable discussion on WWII. (yet again) > > Nah, one post cannot smother a reasonable discussion. The fact of the > matter is that you have not been sucessful in persuading people to accept > some of your main premises. Thus, there is no discussion on how and why > those premises are true. Indeed, your postualtes require the dismissal of > a large body of information; which makes them emperically suspect.
I was not refering to the anti-semetic macro-thread, but rather the point that most people seem to jump to knee-jerk asumptions ...(what this thread was originaly about.) However, it now seems that I have been labled and AS and so any thread that I try and participate in suddenly becomes the same AS discussion thread. Almost proves my point,,,,doesn't it? > > > 2) No one, even the professor we were discussing in the previous > > topic, ever compared Isreal to Nazi Germany on an equal scale. > > Let me quote: > > "And what are they doing with the Palestinians every day? They're > killing them. They're doing the same thing that was done to them.... > It's exactly like what Hitler did to the Jews" > > "Exactly like" are very strong words. Its true that he didn't extend his > falsehood to include the statement that millions of Palestinians have > died...but this statement is so patently false, except in the most trivial > sense....the sense in which people defending themselves are the moral > equivalant of mass murderers. > > The underlying reality of the Middle East is that the Arabs have been > trying to eliminate Israel for over 50 years. They attacked the day Israel > formed, with the intent of wiping it off the face of the earth. They put > the Palestinians in refugee camps because it was politically expedient to > do so. The Palestinian leadership has turned down a reasonable two state > solution, thinking that it can achieve a one state solution through > terrorist attacks. It is very possible that this technique will work. > > Equating that to a historical event where a government systematically > murdered its own citizens who were trying to be good citizens is both > inaccurate and outrageous. That is not merely criticizing Israel, that's > telling an outrageous lie. The fact that some people of the same ethnicity were at war with you does not give you the right to force them into concentration camps. Sorry, but that is "exactly like". We did the same thing to the Japanese in WWII as well, didn't we? I would also say that is "exctly like" What was done in Germany. Now, there was much -MORE- done in Germany, and MUCH WORSE! What is more, I do believe he was regering to the Malitias, and not the governemnt. And those Malitias -have been- indicriminatly killing people. Also, they are not my words, only an example I was using to show how people make knee-jerk reactions and then associate one concept with a doctrin unfoundly. Besides, you Dan, quite often do this, you twist words to mean what you want them to mean, context be dambed, knowing full well what the original speaker ment. Arguemnt for arguemnt's sake, not to find truth, not to understand a disagreement, not to proswade, simply to win the argument. Often an argument that you yourself have created. So forgive me if I don't put to much creedence in this particular twisting. But you can keep crying Wolf if it makes you feel good. You can vilify me, you can knee-jerk, and gather support for your knee- jerking, but it doesn't make it reality. You can acuse me of Anti-Sematism, but it doesn't make me an anti- semite. It stands that disagreeing with the policies of a nation, does not make one a raceist. You still have failed to show how that could posibley be the case. Besides you are addressing me here, these were not even my words, I was mearly using them to make a point. My personal opion on Israli policies is distinct from this. And what is more even if they were, they would be just that, opinoins on -Israli- pollicy. I for one am capable of distinguishing -Isreal- the country and -Jews- the group of people. > >The > > comparison was based on an axis, and suggested that both Isreal and > > Nazi Germany in WWII are on the same side of the origin. > > There is nothing in "exactly alike" that would lead one to believe that. > If that were true, than someone who once was a little short with their > children would be "exactly like" a parent who tortured their own children, > burning, starving, and raping them. Both are on the same side of should > do/shouldn't do. They are not exactly alike. > > > > 3) The information you have provided about hitler is a bit > > questionable. There is evidence that he was appaled at what was going > > on but could not stop it. > > Cites? Whenever you get backed into a corner on some arguemnt or another Dan, you scream for cites. I can finde cites, I can dig up history books that talk about there never being any direct link between hitler and the orders. I could also find cites for the oposite. But you know exactly what you have done here. You removed the next paragraph where I say that not stoping it at least not as the leader of an impire, trying to stop it, is just as bad as if he did give the order. You are once again making a non- argument. Notice I said "a bit" questionable. I was not stating as you would have the reader believe a factuality, but rather stating that there are differing opinions among historians. What is the portion you cut? "What the actual events, feelings, and intent of the man were, he was clearly not a person of good morals and charachter. If he was not in fact directly responsible, he was responsible enough to stop it if he cared to. And that makes him in effect directly responsible." Once again Dan, you have taken a statement out of context, and twisted it for your own argumenative use. You in effect accused me of saying something I didn't say. And you knew very well what you were doing. You selectivly extracted this potion. Please do not lie about what others have comunicated. > > > > The human desire to see a situation in black and white, to vilify or > > raise as a hero, is an enemy of truth, and a deterant to our species > > maturing to the point where we can develop a global society without > > such evils as raceism. > > Denying history has never happened. Once again you are linking one thing that I have said, with a whole doctrin I do not believe. This is exactly what this thread was originaly about was it not? And you began by lying about what I said, now you are linking that lie to a doctrin that is quite the oposite of my beliefe set. So now you are lying about my beliefs. Please do not slandar others on this list. > > > 4) The association discussed above in 2 is in no way anti-semetic any > > more than it is anti-Germanic. > > Malicious lies about Jews are anti-Semetic. You are the only one lieing here Dan, and you know it. You are acusing me of something horindous. Knowing very well that it is not the case. Have you no dignity? Are you devoid of morals? You are accusing me of such a low state. The similarities are not lies, even if they are not valid associations you have in no way shown malice. Once again even if they ~were~ malicious lies, they are not lies about Jewish people, but about -Isreal- the country. I for one am capable of distinguishing -Isreal- the country and -Jews- the group of people. You don't seem to be making the distinction. Are the actions of North Korea eximplary of all Koreans? South Koreans? American Koreans? Even the average Nothern Korean? You Dan are the one makeing the statment you are so repulsed by a statment about ~race~. You have turned it into that in your own head, and what is worse, you would have others view it in the same way. You have created a racialy tense situation. Any racism that comes from this, any animocity, any feelings of the existance of anti-sematism on this list and the feeling of hate that comes from believing that another hates is just such a creation. It has been invented, constructed. But Dan, to what end? I don't understand why you have done this. Can you please explain why you think that any environment needs any more hate? _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
