> Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Deborah Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<some snippage for brevity>
> > As... noted already, a 'moral imperative'
> > should be essentially unimpeachable, because it is
> > a softer reason than, say, the other guy has
> > missiles pointed at your capital.
> Yeah, but his argument didn't make any sense,
> because
> it was just a wholesale abrogation of moral judgment
> to other people - people who have an interest in
> acting in an immoral fashion.
No, it isn't! How did you transmute 'best be an
unimpeachable reason' to 'requiring others permission
to [excuse me] take a piss?'
> All of the arguments
> you and he make _completely ignore_ that fact. We
> have many, many examples of different ways in which
> the countries whose sanctions you advocate us
> seeking
> have showed that moral concerns have little or no
> claim on their stated beliefs. Ignoring that fact
> doesn't make it less true.
Gautam, seeking concensus doesn't mean that you will -
or have to - get it, although it makes things easier
in public, and in the long run. How has my stated
'necessity of under-the-table-arm-twisting' or 'strike
immediately if you have proof of imminant threat' (in
posts before GWII) been transformed into 'whine that
you can't do anything unless everybody agrees?' Which
part of "nastily pragmatic" (used WRT myself in
several prior posts) is unclear to you?
> > As others have pointed out, he _is_ calling for
> > action
> > WRT Darfur, which is laudable. From what I've
> > learned, it is not possible for the US alone to
> > intervene there militarily, as our forces are
> > stretched too far elsewhere. Getting ANC (?)
> > countries to be major participants in such an
> > intervention would probably be morally better than
> > going it alone.... But
> > because the Rwanda massecres (sp!!) happened so
> > quickly, sole intervention then would have been
> > justifiable to me.
> But, in fact, whether or not our forces were
> stretched
> thin, other countries won't really be helping much,
> because they don't have the military capacity to
> engage in a wholesale intervention.
I think African countries need to be seen as
supporting intervention, even if they can't help much.
>Anyways, yes, getting them to intervene is
> good, but their intervention has been illegal and
> unapproved by the UN. You can be in favor of
> intervention to stop genocide in Rwanda/Darfur _or_
> you can say that intervention on moral principles is
> contingent on international consensus. You _cannot_
> do both.
<raises eyebrows> Do you really live in such a
black-and-white, either/or world? Who are you to
tell me I shouldn't go ahead and act if I can't get
agreement because somebody(s) being weaselly, when I
see clearly that action is needed?
>They are fundamentally inconsistent positions.
According to you. I did my best to stay on the
"right" side of policy and law, but do you think that
ANY physician practicing hasn't had to twist, finesse,
or outright slip the system in order to get at least
one of their patients needed care? Is there ANY
medical intervention that might not have negative
consequences? No and no.
>The French government, which has veto
> power in the UN, _aided_ in the Rwandan genocide and
> denies that there is a genocide happening in the
> Sudan.
So they suck. (Did they really _aid_ in that
genocide? Do you have a link, or might it be in the
archives? TIA)
>As long as they do that, UN approval is
> impossible, therefore legal intervention is
> impossible. You can either stand on international
> law or on the necessity of humanitarian
>intervention. You cannot do both.
As so many have pointed out (including you, IIRC), the
UN is not a particularly good keeper of justice or
fairness. Unfortunately, it's what we have, until we
can contrive something better. Work with what you've
got, yet if it flat won't do, then do what you think
is right. But be prepared to face the consequences of
that decision, whether you were correct or not.
Debbi
who has made difficult choices, when a life was in the balance
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
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