> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of jon louis mann
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 6:37 PM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: Conservation
> 
> http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=663&tst
> amp=200705
> 
> it seems like most countries are more concerned about
> balance of trade policies than in protecting the
> environment.  governments tend to operate to favor
> whoever is in power.  we need new models.  in the west
> we raise interest rates as a means of slowing the
> economy and thus combating inflation; yet, the
> principle argument against an energy tax is that it
> would be a drag on the economy.  we should use energy
> tax policy in the same way that we use interest rates.

There are a couple of problems with this.  First, monetary policy has been
used instead of fiscal policy because it works faster.  Most economists
think that correcting business cycles requires actions that are
significantly faster than the time frame of the effects of fiscal policy
(measured in years).  Monetary policy can have an effect in 3-6 months.

Second, do we really want to eliminate the energy tax during recessions?

>nor is it realistic
> to expect government to resist the influence of the
> corporate lobbies.  eventually we may succeed in
> slowing down the rate of increase in greenhouse gasses
> after the damage is irrevocable.  then nature may
> reach a new equilibrium and life will adapt.  

Except, if you listen to corporate ads and statements, you will see that
they have now gotten on board....thinking there will be plenty of money to
be made in alternative energies.  If a new technology actually provides
something that's affordable and desired, someone will find a way to make a
lot of money selling it.  IMHO, the problem is that there are no cost
efficient technologies.

>the costs and repercussions of reducing habits using energy from an
> economy based on planned obsolescence to one based on
> limits and an environmentally friendly policy would be
> far less disruptive to our planet.  when the rest of
> the world starts to consume at our conspicuous level
> then the consequence will be extreme collapse, unless
> means are found to implement cleaner technology and
> less waste.  i agree that we need to conserve energy
> and and reduce our use of non-renewable sources of
> energy if society is to become sustainable.  

If you look at the changes in the US economy over the last 40 years or so,
you will see that it is a lot less dependant on the use of massive
resources.  It's been decades since smokestack America was the basis for our
economy.  Now, the hot new items are portable computers and ipods.  Service
has become a large share of the economy.  The increase in per capita energy
use in the US has been slow.  I'd venture, but don't have the time to prove
right now, that if you subtract the massive need for energy for computers,
we've actually used less energy per capita.

The difficulty is that a smokestack economy is a stepping stone to where we
are.


>countries
> like china and india can lead the way by not emulating
> the west.  china with its central government has the
> power to develop new approaches for energy,
> communication, transportation, distribution,
> consumption, education, agriculture and
> industrialization in general if they are willing to
> abandon the capitalistic model.  

Well, if they abandon the capitalistic model, there won't be much of a
problem because growth will slow.  Look at the correlation of the change in
models in India and the improvement in the economy.


>countries like cuba
> have been forced to rely on organic farming and herbal
> medicines because of the embargo.  

I'll agree that it is possible, in an impoverished police state, to use far
less advanced resources.  But, their land use is far less efficient than
elsewhere. Anyways, what does organic farming and herbal medicines have to
do with countering global warming?  The cost of using them on a massive
scale would be so high that it would be a very inefficient way to decrease
energy use.


>  the scandinavian countries
> use their resources to benefit all of society rather
> than a select few so better models do exist.

Well, from what my co-workers in Norway have told me, the Scandinavian
countries are fairly homogeneous with a fairly rigid strongly enforced
social order. I remember being shocked to hear the wife of a technician
describe the US as "the land of opportunity."



Dan M.


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