Obviously this is an unending argument. You see the NRA side of things and I
don't Despite any argument presented you reply with the logic being flawed
and the tried and true NRA motto, guns don't hurt people, people hurt
people.
Well If there weren't any guns people would still be hurt, but you know
what, a lot less would get hurt.
And when murder by screwdriver or nail gun starts to get numbers like those
of murder by gun, then you can make a logical comparison of "Tools" and a
gun is not a tool BTW. At least to me a tool is something you create with,
or build with... I can't think of anything a gun has created or built other
than families that have no children, widows and widowers. Those really
aren't things I'd be proud of owning a tool that is responsible for.
As far as I know people buying large quantities of the items used in
Oklahoma are now investigated by the FBI.
J.
John Wilker
Web Applications Consultant
Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:03 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Violent education
Again your logic is flawed John. A gun collection CAN'T hurt anyone. Only
PEOPLE can hurt PEOPLE.
As an asided, my firearms and ammunition are stored in a 800 pound,
fireproof safe that is bolted into my concret floor. My firearms can't hurt
anyone, unless I decide to use them as a tool. There are many tools that can
be used for violence and are used for violence. Just review the Oklohoma
bombing. No guns there.... If a psycho wants to hurt somebody, somebody is
going to get hurt period.
Every law that is passed takes one less right away from us. Let's not forget
that it is freedom that makes this country great. Stalin and Hitler believed
in control....
-george
>From: "John Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Violent education
>Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:14:23 -0700
>
>The only thing I can say in regards to that is, my baseball card collection
>can't kill, my stamp collection and comic book collections can't either.
>Unless I were to tie some one down and slash at them for a very long time,
>longer than I probably have the energy for. However your gun collection
>could easily be turned to violence on a whim.
>
>Sadly it's everyone's business what you collect when it turns on us. If you
>have children then your gun collection has a chance of doing harm, if you
>get fired and feel wronged, then your gun collection has a chance to do
>harm, If you're just having a really crappy day and don't know how to vent
>your anger, then your gun collection has a chance to do harm. If it meant
>giving up something I collect in order to help affect political and
>societal
>change, I'd be a no comic book, no stamp, no baseball card having
>individual
>(I actually don't collect any of those things, I don't really collect
>anything, I'm kinda boring LOL).
>
>We talk about responsibility, then maybe we should be responsible enough to
>understand that guns aren't a symptom, guns are part of the problem, and
>when we see that then maybe we'll be that much closer to a solution. The
>gun
>toting "collectors" and People "protecting" themselves would rather, it
>seems blame society as a whole, video games, poor old Marylyn Manson and
>pretty much anybody else rather than look at themselves and think, "I'd
>never kill a sole, but what about my wife, kids? family that might visit?
>some one who might break in and steal my gun?" But then as long as you're
>not pulling the trigger it's really not your fault or responsibility.
>
>If you look at the columbine kids or the one in Santee and elsewhere many
>of
>there parents and classmates would say, "He was so quite, not a violent
>bone
>in his body." I'd hardly say that is a propensity for violence, I'd say
>that's rage that is out of control and a gun in the house is a very easy
>answer to that rage.
>
>Just think, all this lively conversation has gotten all of our blood
>pumping
>and we're completely energized. :-)
>
>J.
>
>John Wilker
>Web Applications Consultant
>Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
>
>www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
>
>"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
>hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:24 PM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: Violent education
>
>
>John - The reason I own so many guns is the same reason all those sports
>cards collectors have so many cards - because they can or because they like
>to collect that certain thing. Now, I know you're saying, "but Mark,
>trading
>cards don't kill people". Well John, neither do guns my friend. Has it sunk
>in yet? It's nobodies business why I own so many guns. Just like it's none
>of my business why people collect anything I don't particularly care about
>or more pointedly, don't understand. What almost everybody is saying here
>is
>that we HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS! Blaming all our problems on
>guns is being a complete passifist and near-sighted. That is, you're not
>looking at the deeper rooted issues with this country and violence.
>
>Saying that some kid won't commit acts of violence because he doesn't have
>access to a gun is ridiculous. If a kid has a propensity for violence,
>guess
>what? He's going to commit violence. Which would you rather have - a
>society
>that takes care of itself, has respect for others, takes responsibility for
>their actions? Or a government controlled fascist (a.k.a Mussolini, Hitler)
>type society where you have to ask permission to take a dump?
>
>I know it's easier said than done, but it's not like this country has never
>had values before. It wasn't too long ago when the majority of people
>respected life and respected each other. We live in a society now where men
>don't have respect for women, we care too much about material things. We
>dump our kids off at some building and let others take care of them. We've
>lost site of what "family" really means. I remember my family sitting down
>for breakfast and dinner every day. I'm sure that a lot of families still
>do
>that, but the numbers are dwindling.
>
>God, I knew when I saw this topic this morning that I wouldn't get any work
>done... Sorry, I'm just very perfervid about this topic.
>
>Mark Stewart
>Programmer/Analyst
>Communication Concepts
>215.672.6900 x1332
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/07/01 03:26PM >>>
>I completely agree, no amount of laws will ever completely end anything,
>because you're right. Where there is demand supply will be available.
>However if guns weren't so easy to get a hold of you have to admit that
>many
>would not commit acts of violence. If a kids gets beat up by a bully and
>has
>the ability to run upstairs and grab a gun and put it in his back pack,
>he's
>more likely to do it, than if he had no access to a gun in the house and
>would have to figure out how to get one. Chances are he'd cool off and
>think
>about it.
>
>I can't even imagine what logic dictates to own several guns. Ok if I take
>into account that there are accounts of people defending themselves with a
>fire arm, why more than one? In case you are being attacked by several
>assailants? In case you need to arm the wife and kids?
>
>People who are for guns seem to always have many guns. and a lot seem to
>have no need for them. I live in a particularly crappy area, I hear gun
>shots at night at least once a month or more, I feel in no way compelled to
>arm myself.
>
>The argument that our country was founded on guns and our ability to defend
>ourselves is moot. When the constitution was written our army was small and
>mostly militia. Of course they needed to be armed. However our country was
>also founded on slavery, and yet somehow we saw fit to abolish that. So we
>can't argue that was good back in 1776 is still good and applies today.
>
>Today needs to be judged by today, and today we have a nation of people
>armed to the teeth simply because they can be. And unless evidence is made
>available that the number of innocent people killed by family guns is much
>smaller than the number of people saved by a family gun, I'll choose to
>stay
>un armed.
>
>J.
>
>John Wilker
>Web Applications Consultant
>Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
>
>www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
>
>"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
>hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:49 AM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: Violent education
>
>
>"All guns kill" - Nope, I own several guns and they have never killed
>anything. (I don't hunt, only target shoot) My dog did kill a frog once
>though......
>
>"However we aren't talking about criminals" - The second those psycho kids
>started planning their assault on the school, they became criminals. Are
>you
>really naive to think if their parents didn't own guns they could not have
>gotten them?
>
>Also, there are plenty of stories of people successfully defending
>themselves with firearms. The media chooses to downplay them though.
>
>Here's more food for thought.... Washington DC has the strongest gun
>control
>laws in the country? They also have one of the highest crime rates. Make
>your own conclusions....
>
>-george
>
>
> >From: "John Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Violent education
> >Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:09:43 -0700
> >
> >I completely agree that gun control will have little effect on the
> >criminals
> >out there. However we aren't talking about the criminals. We're talking
> >about kids going out and shooting their classmates in cold blood with the
> >parents weapons. Gun control would come very close to solving that
>problem.
> >If you look at all these school shooting cases I don't recall any of the
> >kids coming from the homes of known criminals. They come from the homes
>of
> >the people who feel a gun will offer them protection from criminals.
> >
> >"I think everyone for gun control should put
> >a big sign in their yard (We have no firearms in this household). This
> >would
> >serve as a great invite to burglars."
> >
> >I'll put a sign in my yard that says I have no gun. How many people who
>own
> >guns "for protection" have had to protect themselves? If some one kicked
>in
> >your door would you have either the time or inclination to run for your
> >gun?
> >Houses are usually robbed when empty and when they're not it's a home
> >invasion scenario in which case, many are killed with the guns they
>bought
> >to protect themselves.
> >
> >"So .. if I have guns and the kid down the street has guns and he kills a
> >bunch of people and I don't, what's the difference? It's not the guns.
> >I'll say its 50% nature and 50% nurture ... that's what it *really* boils
> >down to."
> >
> >The difference is, that if neither household had a gun in it, the kids
> >would
> >be alive and your chances of being robbed would be no greater.
> >
> >Do any of us really think that criminals know where the houses with guns
> >are? Owning a gun is no more a deterrent than being an off duty police
> >office asleep in your bed, a crook isn't gonna know that going in.
> >
> >"The next problem with your logic is where do you draw the line? Drug
> >dealers
> >train attack dogs to protect their 'crack houses'. When the police bust
>in,
> >these dogs attack the police buying their owners time to either attempt
> >escape or destroy evidence. Do we ban owning dogs?"
> >
> >That's a slippery slope that can't be answered. By that logic we should
>out
> >law doors, since they impeded a cops entering of a house. That's not
>really
> >a strong argument. But to address dogs, not all dogs kill, some do some
> >don't. All guns kill. People or animals, guns have no other purpose than
>to
> >end life.
> >
> >J.
> >
> >
> >
> >John Wilker
> >Web Applications Consultant
> >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> >
> >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> >
> >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Todd Ashworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:30 AM
> >To: CF-Community
> >Subject: Re: Violent education
> >
> >
> >| If we had strict gun control then who would we need to protect
>ourselves
> >| from? If the criminals couldn't get guns then people wouldn't think
>they
> >| needed them in their houses.
> >
> >I hate to disagree, but strict gun control isn't going to do much to keep
> >the guns out of the hands of people. Drugs are actually illegal, yet
>kids
> >these days have better access to drugs in schools than they do guns. Gun
> >control might help, but it won't solve anything in the long run. Don't
>get
> >me wrong .. I'm no fan of the NRA, but I don't believe in gun control for
> >the sake of preventing violence alone. It just isn't going to work.
> >
> >Growing up, I played violent video games, watched violent shows on TV,
>had
> >toy guns, played war with my buddies and all of that. I also had access
>to
> >guns and even personaly owned a few. I had my share of run-ins with
> >bullies
> >in highschool, but I *never* felt compelled to take a gun to school and
> >blow
> >some people away for the hell of it.
> >
> >So .. if I have guns and the kid down the street has guns and he kills a
> >bunch of people and I don't, what's the difference? It's not the guns.
> >I'll say its 50% nature and 50% nurture ... that's what it *really* boils
> >down to.
> >
> >Todd
> >
>
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