Okay. We already recognized a few trolls from last time this happened. Right? Do not let the troll suck you in to his trolly madness. Nobody wins.
I'm sorry that some people are actually unsubscribing from the list because of this kind of crap although I've thought of doing so myself. It seems that some people get their jollies by lurking around waiting for opportunities to upset and insult others. Really nice. -----Original Message----- From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 9:52 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( And your attitude is that if you do not win the argument, its time to engage in person attacks. A real mature reaction no? larry -- Larry C. Lyons ColdFusion/Web Developer EBStor.com 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 tel: (703) 393-7930 fax: (703) 393-2659 Web: http://www.ebstor.com http://www.pacel.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. -- > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:26 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > Congrulations Beth, > > You should print up some stickers. Maybe a badge or two. Run > a campain. Just > don't bother with real discussion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:14 AM > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > Howard has hit it on the head here: > > > > According to YOU gary, anyone who believes that the US has > a right to > > military action in Afghanistan is a war monger who wants to > kill all of > > the > > afghan people, particularly the women and children. > > > > Its YOU who sees this in black and white, not us. I > personally resent > > being > > called a war monger - it makes me very angry. I think it > makes other > > people > > here angry as well. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:08 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > Gary, first off, I didn't attack anybody and I don't > appreciate being > > > generalized in with these others you lump me in with. > > > > > > I agree that many, many people do what you say -- you don't agree > > with XYZ > > > so you must be anti-American. I've had the same thing done to > > myself. > > > But > > > I wasn't calling anybody anti-American. And if you read > my posts in > > this > > > series carefully, you'll see I made it clear what I was saying. > > > > > > Boiling down is a bit of a clich�, but it's a valid intellectual > > argument. > > > All propositions, if valid, can be "boiled down" to basic, > > understandable > > > terms. Sometimes, only when we strip away a lot of verbiage do we > > even > > > understand what we ourselves are saying. I was hoping to > point out to > > a > > > particular individual that maybe what he was saying wasn't really > > what he > > > intended, or if it was what he intended, it wasn't very savory. > > > > > > On the flip side, I also see a lot of -- and I feel like > I'm getting > > this > > > from you and Benjamin -- if you don't agree with me, you > are either a > > > boob-tube zombie or a neo-Nazi. > > > > > > It's very easy to label people. It means you don't need > to examine > > their > > > position for any possible validity. For example, those > who call you > > > anti-American because you don't support (supposedly) military > > tribunals, > > > give you an excuse not to examine any arguments in favor > of military > > > tribunals (and they are numerous; if it wasn't so late I > would list > > them > > > now -- maybe tomorrow evening). > > > > > > I am also bothered by your statement: "What has the War In > > Afghanistan > > > (America's Next War, ad infinitum)... done so far? We really don't > > know. > > > Sure, there are some women without birquas(sp) on. And > some men have > > > shaved > > > beards. But have we actually stopped terrorism > > > at all?" > > > > > > What do you expect? Terrorism to be wiped out in two > months? Really? > > > Honestly? > > > > > > We have made tremendous progress in a very short amount of time in > > > Afghanistan. The war has advanced faster than I ever > imagine, even > > in > > > factoring in our military superiority. > > > > > > Haven't you been listening -- this "war" will take years. > It's only > > > logical > > > that it would. > > > > > > Almost certainly, America will be attacked again. So why be > > surprised at > > > suicide bombers in Israel. Hell, we have hardly even focused much > > > attention > > > on that problem yet. > > > > > > I mean, just what are your expectations? > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:37 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > Whether Howard meant to do this intentionally or not, this is a > > common > > > tool > > > in American media (on both sides), maybe in others. > "Boiling it down" > > can > > > oversimplify complex issues and make them seem out of > context. Watch > > Bill > > > O'Reilly, he is a master at this. It is a common tool. We are > > increasingly > > > being taught to NOT be skeptical of our leaders and their > agendas or > > to be > > > afraid to question their actions for fear of a personal attack. > > > > > > I have been attacked in here for my same views. This type > of attack > > was > > > used > > > by McCarthy and Reagan. "If you don't agree with us, you > must not be > > with > > > us > > > and you must agree with the other side." It is happening > in the news > > and > > > in > > > politics everyday in America. It happens in this group. Don't > > support the > > > war? You must be anti-American (re: Beth saying I should leave > > America > > > because I exercise the very rights I and others have served in the > > armed > > > forces to protect). Think maybe the way America has > exploited other > > > countries and pissed some people off? You must be > un-American. Think > > the > > > Attorney General is a right-wing, neo-Nazi sympathizer > (see his past > > > writings and remarks)? Think these new tribunals and anti-terror > > > legislation > > > are knee-jerk? You must be anti-American. "Get with the program > > soldier" > > > ("FMJ"). Who's side are you on? Etc. Etc. No real effort > is made to > > > understand the other side of the argument, just attack > the arguer (ad > > > hominem). > > > > > > What has the War In Afghanistan (America's Next War, ad > infinitum)... > > done > > > so far? We really don't know. Sure, there are some women without > > > birquas(sp) > > > on. And some men have shaved beards. But have we actually stopped > > > terrorism > > > at all? Have we helped unleash a civil war? Laid the > ground for one? > > After > > > the attacks in Israel, I would say no. In a year or two, when the > > > political > > > capital of Afghanistan has been spent and we realize what > the war is > > > costing, people will go back to watching "news" of OJ or > endless talk > > > about > > > some other trivial subject (Condit comes to mind or > sports). I think > > there > > > are more sports channels than "news" channels. Feed the > distractions. > > > Opium > > > for the masses. Cheap to make and people will pay a > fortune for it. > > > > > > BTW - I have heard zero on the news about the cost, and I > am talking > > the > > > nightly or daily news, not some obscure web source I have to track > > down, I > > > am talking what most Americans will see. > > > > > > Anyway, I am tired. Good night. > > > > > > -Gary > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:04 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you feel the need to "boil down" my statements? I don't > > > > doubt it was > > > > an honest attempt on your part, but why is it nessasary? In your > > case it > > > > seems your 'honest' attempt at boiling down my statements was > > intended > > > for > > > > your then to manipulate my statements to gain support from other > > > > members on > > > > this board and discredit my original intentions. In > short, to put > > words > > > in > > > > my mouth. Nothing in my posts are indicated my > agreeing/condoning > > the > > > > taliban, yet you sarcasically impied this with your post along > > > > with labeling > > > > my words "liberal mantra". > > > > > > > > I see a distinct difference between news and truth or 'reality'. > > > > If you take > > > > one of my previous metaphors, truth (the ingrediant) is > sugar, but > > coke > > > > (corporate news) is not sugar, it may be based on > sugar, but there > > is > > > > nothing natural or real about it. It's a consumable commodity. > > > > > > > > This is my objection put simply. I do condone the sterotyping of > > > > Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use > > > > the 'street > > > > celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross > generalisation > > > > equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food > addicted ignorant > > > > war-loving facists". Neither of these two description > are fair and > > > > demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part > > > > responsible for > > > > this ignorance. This is my objection. > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to > boil down > > your > > > > > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a > chance to > > > respond > > > > and > > > > > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking > > > > you. I was > > > > > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when > > > > presented with, > > > > > what even you described as factual, news accounts. > > > > > > > > > > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- > the news is > > > biased, > > > > but > > > > > it's factual. > > > > > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. > > > > > > > > > > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted, > > > uninformed > > > > view > > > > > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- > people who > > don't > > > > like > > > > > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any one > > who > > > says, > > > > > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very > > convenient > > > > position > > > > > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around > without ever being > > in a > > > > > position to honestly face your own biases. > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of > > > > non-mainstream > > > > > thinking... > > > > > > > > > > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so > > called > > > > > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a > > discussion > > > > > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said > that, I don't > > > welcome > > > > you > > > > > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on > the Taliban > > > > and their > > > > > oppressive regime. > > > > > > > > > > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned > > media by > > > > > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the > > news. > > > Your > > > > > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as > "liberal mantra" > > if > > > you > > > > > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no > credit as it > > > implies > > > > > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a > > > > discussion of any > > > > > real depth. > > > > > > > > > > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of > > good. > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil > > down > > > for > > > > you > > > > > > what I hear you saying: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the > nuance may be > > off > > > > because > > > > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" > news is some > > how > > > > > obscured. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree, > > > > and no longer > > > > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base > > any > > > > > conclusions > > > > > > this "newstainment." > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly? > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating, > > stoning > > > and > > > > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a > > > > network news > > > > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A > > Taliban > > > > denial > > > > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't > mean to stone > > those > > > > women > > > > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.") > > > > > > > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because > that's what > > I > > > hear > > > > you > > > > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are > > > > delivered. And > > > > no > > > > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal > > > > mantra of we > > > > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly > justify what > > the > > > > > Taliban > > > > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan. > > > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated > > > > understanding of > > > > my > > > > > > original post. But allow me at least the > oppertunity to expand > > my > > > > > perspetive > > > > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, > even though > > the > > > > > original > > > > > > post was not even address to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be > broadened to > > any > > > > > > corporately own/operated news service) as > manufactured, but I > > > > did not in > > > > > any > > > > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services > > (mostly) > > > > deliver > > > > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka > > > > cola; coke > > > > is > > > > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the > > "oppression > > > of > > > > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end > > > > result delivered > > > > > by > > > > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a > manufacured > > > > construct > > > > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. > This is how > > I > > > view > > > > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no > > > > different from, > > > > > and > > > > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the > > > nineties > > > > film > > > > > > "Wag the Dog". > > > > > > > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive > > music and > > > > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly > > whose > > > > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the > > > > reach of this > > > > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of > presentations > > are > > > not > > > > at > > > > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the > entertainment > > > industry > > > > as > > > > > a > > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making > > > judgements > > > > upon > > > > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information > > > > offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on > > true > > > > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion > > > > on the news > > > > > is > > > > > > an extension of this logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a > > > > myth, made > > > > up > > > > > > by > > > > > > > the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani > women several > > > > years ago > > > > > when > > > > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. > Did she make > > it up > > > > too? > > > > > > was > > > > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she > > told of > > > > women > > > > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom > > > > they weren't > > > > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers > > > > and doctors > > > > > > made > > > > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no > > longer > > > > > allowed > > > > > > to > > > > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies > about the > > > > wonderful > > > > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to > teach girls > > dont' > > > > exist > > > > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE > allowed to > > go to > > > > > school? > > > > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was > > > > made up for > > > > > > WHAT > > > > > > > REASON? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to > music again, > > > shaving > > > > > their > > > > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really > > > > oppressed its just > > > > a > > > > > > > media invention, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily > limited in it's > > > > > > representation > > > > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media > east as it's > > > exists > > > > for > > > > > > us). > > > > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often > designed to > > > promote > > > > > this > > > > > > > > kind > > > > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these > > being > > > the > > > > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the > oppression of > > women > > > in > > > > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the > developed > > and > > > made > > > > > self > > > > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets > > > > until they > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial > popularity. > > There > > > > > simplify > > > > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture > for the fast > > food > > > > culture > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > is America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 > kids. There > > were > > > PA > > > > > police > > > > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news > > from it. > > > > There > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I > > > > know people > > > > > who > > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do > many others. > > > > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It > > > > started with > > > > a > > > > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage. > > > > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of > > some > > > truly > > > > > sick > > > > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the > suffering of > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion... > > > > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids > > > > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know > how that is > > > > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the > > > > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women > > > > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its > > > > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was > > > > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was > > > > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media > > > > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or > > > > > > > > > >confirm the reports.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do > > > > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does > > > > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets, > > > > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow > found her > > > > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the > > > > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more > > > > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a > Palestinian > > > > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of > > > > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and > > > > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was > > > > > > > > > >happening here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to > get there > > > > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came > > > > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt > > > > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady > > > > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which > > > > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for > > > > > > > > > >joy!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
