I have met some poor palestinians, but also poor israelis. I will agree being uprooted has not been good for the palestinian people but quite frankly I believe that they have been far more wronged by neighboring arab countries than by israel.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:13 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Fleischer, Beth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:10 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > I dont' condone that either. I have some wonderful palestinian friends. > > When in israel years ago I visited a wonderful community - an experiment > - > > where israelis and palestinians lived in peace. It was a wonderful > place. > > We also visited a palestinian town and got to meet kids our own age. > They > > were just like us and didn't hate us. > > > > However, the palestinians have an unfortunate high percentage of > > extremeist > > terrorists. I don't like these people. > > They are also greatly repressed in a very poor economy. My guess is that > where you visited was scripted. I would guess you were not allowed to go > where the poverty is rampant and the people are angry. I am not defending > the actions of these people, in no way would I do that. I am saying that > there are almost always two sides to a story. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:12 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > Correction: > > > My last paragraph should contained a typo. It should have read: > > > > > > This is my objection put simply. I do not condone the sterotyping of > > > Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use the > > > 'street > > > celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross generalisation > > > equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food addicted ignorant > > > war-loving facists". Neither of these two description are fair and > > > demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part > responsible > > > for > > > this ignorance. This is my objection. > > > > > > Correction: I do NOT condone > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to boil down your > > > > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a chance > > to respond > > > and > > > > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking you. > I > > > was > > > > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when presented > > > with, > > > > what even you described as factual, news accounts. > > > > > > > > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- the news > > is biased, > > > but > > > > it's factual. > > > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. > > > > > > > > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted, > > uninformed > > > view > > > > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- people who > don't > > > like > > > > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any > > one who says, > > > > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very convenient > > > position > > > > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around without ever being in > a > > > > position to honestly face your own biases. > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of > > > non-mainstream > > > > thinking... > > > > > > > > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so called > > > > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a discussion > > > > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said that, I > > don't welcome > > > you > > > > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on the Taliban and > > > their > > > > oppressive regime. > > > > > > > > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned media > by > > > > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the > > news. Your > > > > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as "liberal > > mantra" if you > > > > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no credit as > > it implies > > > > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a discussion > of > > > any > > > > real depth. > > > > > > > > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of good. > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me > > boil down for > > > you > > > > > what I hear you saying: > > > > > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the nuance may be off > > > because > > > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" news is some how > > > > obscured. > > > > > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree, and no > > > longer > > > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base any > > > > conclusions > > > > > this "newstainment." > > > > > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating, > > stoning and > > > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a > network > > > news > > > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A > Taliban > > > denial > > > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't mean to stone > those > > > women > > > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.") > > > > > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because that's > > what I hear > > > you > > > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive. > > > > > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are > delivered. > > > And > > > no > > > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal mantra > of > > > we > > > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly justify what > the > > > > Taliban > > > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan. > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated > understanding > > > of > > > my > > > > > original post. But allow me at least the oppertunity to expand my > > > > perspetive > > > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, even though > the > > > > original > > > > > post was not even address to you. > > > > > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be broadened to any > > > > > corporately own/operated news service) as manufactured, but > > I did not > > > in > > > > any > > > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services (mostly) > > > deliver > > > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka cola; > > > coke > > > is > > > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the > > "oppression of > > > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end result > > > delivered > > > > by > > > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a manufacured > > > construct > > > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. This is > > how I view > > > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no different > > > from, > > > > and > > > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by > > the nineties > > > film > > > > > "Wag the Dog". > > > > > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive music > and > > > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly whose > > > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the reach of > > > this > > > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of > > presentations are not > > > at > > > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the > > entertainment industry > > > as > > > > a > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making > > judgements > > > upon > > > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information > > > offensive. > > > > > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on true > > > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion on > the > > > news > > > > is > > > > > an extension of this logic. > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks!! > > > > > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a myth, > > > made > > > up > > > > > by > > > > > > the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani women several > years > > > ago > > > > when > > > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. Did she make it > up > > > too? > > > > > was > > > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she told > of > > > women > > > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom they > > > weren't > > > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers and > > > doctors > > > > > made > > > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no > longer > > > > allowed > > > > > to > > > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies about the > > > wonderful > > > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to teach girls > dont' > > > exist > > > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE allowed to go > to > > > > school? > > > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was made > up > > > for > > > > > WHAT > > > > > > REASON? > > > > > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to music > > again, shaving > > > > their > > > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really oppressed > its > > > just > > > a > > > > > > media invention, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily limited in it's > > > > > representation > > > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media east as > > it's exists > > > for > > > > > us). > > > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often designed > > to promote > > > > this > > > > > > > kind > > > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these > > being the > > > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the oppression > > of women in > > > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the > > developed and made > > > > self > > > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets until > > > they > > > > > become > > > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial popularity. > There > > > > simplify > > > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture for the fast food > > > culture > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > is America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 kids. > > There were PA > > > > police > > > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news from > it. > > > There > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I know > > > people > > > > who > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do many others. > > > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It > started > > > with > > > a > > > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage. > > > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of > > some truly > > > > sick > > > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the suffering > > of others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion... > > > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids > > > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know how that is > > > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the > > > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women > > > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its > > > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was > > > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was > > > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media > > > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or > > > > > > > > >confirm the reports.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do > > > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does > > > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets, > > > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow found her > > > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the > > > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more > > > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a Palestinian > > > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of > > > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and > > > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was > > > > > > > > >happening here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to get there > > > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came > > > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt > > > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady > > > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which > > > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for > > > > > > > > >joy!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your ad could be here. 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