And your attitude is that if you do not win the argument, its time to engage in person attacks. A real mature reaction no?
larry -- Larry C. Lyons ColdFusion/Web Developer EBStor.com 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 tel: (703) 393-7930 fax: (703) 393-2659 Web: http://www.ebstor.com http://www.pacel.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. -- > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:26 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > Congrulations Beth, > > You should print up some stickers. Maybe a badge or two. Run > a campain. Just > don't bother with real discussion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:14 AM > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > Howard has hit it on the head here: > > > > According to YOU gary, anyone who believes that the US has > a right to > > military action in Afghanistan is a war monger who wants to > kill all of > > the > > afghan people, particularly the women and children. > > > > Its YOU who sees this in black and white, not us. I > personally resent > > being > > called a war monger - it makes me very angry. I think it > makes other > > people > > here angry as well. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:08 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > Gary, first off, I didn't attack anybody and I don't > appreciate being > > > generalized in with these others you lump me in with. > > > > > > I agree that many, many people do what you say -- you don't agree > > with XYZ > > > so you must be anti-American. I've had the same thing done to > > myself. > > > But > > > I wasn't calling anybody anti-American. And if you read > my posts in > > this > > > series carefully, you'll see I made it clear what I was saying. > > > > > > Boiling down is a bit of a clich�, but it's a valid intellectual > > argument. > > > All propositions, if valid, can be "boiled down" to basic, > > understandable > > > terms. Sometimes, only when we strip away a lot of verbiage do we > > even > > > understand what we ourselves are saying. I was hoping to > point out to > > a > > > particular individual that maybe what he was saying wasn't really > > what he > > > intended, or if it was what he intended, it wasn't very savory. > > > > > > On the flip side, I also see a lot of -- and I feel like > I'm getting > > this > > > from you and Benjamin -- if you don't agree with me, you > are either a > > > boob-tube zombie or a neo-Nazi. > > > > > > It's very easy to label people. It means you don't need > to examine > > their > > > position for any possible validity. For example, those > who call you > > > anti-American because you don't support (supposedly) military > > tribunals, > > > give you an excuse not to examine any arguments in favor > of military > > > tribunals (and they are numerous; if it wasn't so late I > would list > > them > > > now -- maybe tomorrow evening). > > > > > > I am also bothered by your statement: "What has the War In > > Afghanistan > > > (America's Next War, ad infinitum)... done so far? We really don't > > know. > > > Sure, there are some women without birquas(sp) on. And > some men have > > > shaved > > > beards. But have we actually stopped terrorism > > > at all?" > > > > > > What do you expect? Terrorism to be wiped out in two > months? Really? > > > Honestly? > > > > > > We have made tremendous progress in a very short amount of time in > > > Afghanistan. The war has advanced faster than I ever > imagine, even > > in > > > factoring in our military superiority. > > > > > > Haven't you been listening -- this "war" will take years. > It's only > > > logical > > > that it would. > > > > > > Almost certainly, America will be attacked again. So why be > > surprised at > > > suicide bombers in Israel. Hell, we have hardly even focused much > > > attention > > > on that problem yet. > > > > > > I mean, just what are your expectations? > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:37 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > Whether Howard meant to do this intentionally or not, this is a > > common > > > tool > > > in American media (on both sides), maybe in others. > "Boiling it down" > > can > > > oversimplify complex issues and make them seem out of > context. Watch > > Bill > > > O'Reilly, he is a master at this. It is a common tool. We are > > increasingly > > > being taught to NOT be skeptical of our leaders and their > agendas or > > to be > > > afraid to question their actions for fear of a personal attack. > > > > > > I have been attacked in here for my same views. This type > of attack > > was > > > used > > > by McCarthy and Reagan. "If you don't agree with us, you > must not be > > with > > > us > > > and you must agree with the other side." It is happening > in the news > > and > > > in > > > politics everyday in America. It happens in this group. Don't > > support the > > > war? You must be anti-American (re: Beth saying I should leave > > America > > > because I exercise the very rights I and others have served in the > > armed > > > forces to protect). Think maybe the way America has > exploited other > > > countries and pissed some people off? You must be > un-American. Think > > the > > > Attorney General is a right-wing, neo-Nazi sympathizer > (see his past > > > writings and remarks)? Think these new tribunals and anti-terror > > > legislation > > > are knee-jerk? You must be anti-American. "Get with the program > > soldier" > > > ("FMJ"). Who's side are you on? Etc. Etc. No real effort > is made to > > > understand the other side of the argument, just attack > the arguer (ad > > > hominem). > > > > > > What has the War In Afghanistan (America's Next War, ad > infinitum)... > > done > > > so far? We really don't know. Sure, there are some women without > > > birquas(sp) > > > on. And some men have shaved beards. But have we actually stopped > > > terrorism > > > at all? Have we helped unleash a civil war? Laid the > ground for one? > > After > > > the attacks in Israel, I would say no. In a year or two, when the > > > political > > > capital of Afghanistan has been spent and we realize what > the war is > > > costing, people will go back to watching "news" of OJ or > endless talk > > > about > > > some other trivial subject (Condit comes to mind or > sports). I think > > there > > > are more sports channels than "news" channels. Feed the > distractions. > > > Opium > > > for the masses. Cheap to make and people will pay a > fortune for it. > > > > > > BTW - I have heard zero on the news about the cost, and I > am talking > > the > > > nightly or daily news, not some obscure web source I have to track > > down, I > > > am talking what most Americans will see. > > > > > > Anyway, I am tired. Good night. > > > > > > -Gary > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:04 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you feel the need to "boil down" my statements? I don't > > > > doubt it was > > > > an honest attempt on your part, but why is it nessasary? In your > > case it > > > > seems your 'honest' attempt at boiling down my statements was > > intended > > > for > > > > your then to manipulate my statements to gain support from other > > > > members on > > > > this board and discredit my original intentions. In > short, to put > > words > > > in > > > > my mouth. Nothing in my posts are indicated my > agreeing/condoning > > the > > > > taliban, yet you sarcasically impied this with your post along > > > > with labeling > > > > my words "liberal mantra". > > > > > > > > I see a distinct difference between news and truth or 'reality'. > > > > If you take > > > > one of my previous metaphors, truth (the ingrediant) is > sugar, but > > coke > > > > (corporate news) is not sugar, it may be based on > sugar, but there > > is > > > > nothing natural or real about it. It's a consumable commodity. > > > > > > > > This is my objection put simply. I do condone the sterotyping of > > > > Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use > > > > the 'street > > > > celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross > generalisation > > > > equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food > addicted ignorant > > > > war-loving facists". Neither of these two description > are fair and > > > > demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part > > > > responsible for > > > > this ignorance. This is my objection. > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to > boil down > > your > > > > > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a > chance to > > > respond > > > > and > > > > > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking > > > > you. I was > > > > > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when > > > > presented with, > > > > > what even you described as factual, news accounts. > > > > > > > > > > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- > the news is > > > biased, > > > > but > > > > > it's factual. > > > > > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. > > > > > > > > > > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted, > > > uninformed > > > > view > > > > > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- > people who > > don't > > > > like > > > > > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any one > > who > > > says, > > > > > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very > > convenient > > > > position > > > > > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around > without ever being > > in a > > > > > position to honestly face your own biases. > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of > > > > non-mainstream > > > > > thinking... > > > > > > > > > > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so > > called > > > > > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a > > discussion > > > > > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said > that, I don't > > > welcome > > > > you > > > > > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on > the Taliban > > > > and their > > > > > oppressive regime. > > > > > > > > > > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned > > media by > > > > > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the > > news. > > > Your > > > > > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as > "liberal mantra" > > if > > > you > > > > > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no > credit as it > > > implies > > > > > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a > > > > discussion of any > > > > > real depth. > > > > > > > > > > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of > > good. > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil > > down > > > for > > > > you > > > > > > what I hear you saying: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the > nuance may be > > off > > > > because > > > > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" > news is some > > how > > > > > obscured. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree, > > > > and no longer > > > > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base > > any > > > > > conclusions > > > > > > this "newstainment." > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly? > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating, > > stoning > > > and > > > > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a > > > > network news > > > > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A > > Taliban > > > > denial > > > > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't > mean to stone > > those > > > > women > > > > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.") > > > > > > > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because > that's what > > I > > > hear > > > > you > > > > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are > > > > delivered. And > > > > no > > > > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal > > > > mantra of we > > > > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly > justify what > > the > > > > > Taliban > > > > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan. > > > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated > > > > understanding of > > > > my > > > > > > original post. But allow me at least the > oppertunity to expand > > my > > > > > perspetive > > > > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, > even though > > the > > > > > original > > > > > > post was not even address to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be > broadened to > > any > > > > > > corporately own/operated news service) as > manufactured, but I > > > > did not in > > > > > any > > > > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services > > (mostly) > > > > deliver > > > > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka > > > > cola; coke > > > > is > > > > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the > > "oppression > > > of > > > > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end > > > > result delivered > > > > > by > > > > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a > manufacured > > > > construct > > > > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. > This is how > > I > > > view > > > > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no > > > > different from, > > > > > and > > > > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the > > > nineties > > > > film > > > > > > "Wag the Dog". > > > > > > > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive > > music and > > > > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly > > whose > > > > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the > > > > reach of this > > > > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of > presentations > > are > > > not > > > > at > > > > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the > entertainment > > > industry > > > > as > > > > > a > > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making > > > judgements > > > > upon > > > > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information > > > > offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on > > true > > > > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion > > > > on the news > > > > > is > > > > > > an extension of this logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a > > > > myth, made > > > > up > > > > > > by > > > > > > > the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani > women several > > > > years ago > > > > > when > > > > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. > Did she make > > it up > > > > too? > > > > > > was > > > > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she > > told of > > > > women > > > > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom > > > > they weren't > > > > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers > > > > and doctors > > > > > > made > > > > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no > > longer > > > > > allowed > > > > > > to > > > > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies > about the > > > > wonderful > > > > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to > teach girls > > dont' > > > > exist > > > > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE > allowed to > > go to > > > > > school? > > > > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was > > > > made up for > > > > > > WHAT > > > > > > > REASON? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to > music again, > > > shaving > > > > > their > > > > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really > > > > oppressed its just > > > > a > > > > > > > media invention, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily > limited in it's > > > > > > representation > > > > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media > east as it's > > > exists > > > > for > > > > > > us). > > > > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often > designed to > > > promote > > > > > this > > > > > > > > kind > > > > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these > > being > > > the > > > > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the > oppression of > > women > > > in > > > > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the > developed > > and > > > made > > > > > self > > > > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets > > > > until they > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial > popularity. > > There > > > > > simplify > > > > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture > for the fast > > food > > > > culture > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > is America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 > kids. There > > were > > > PA > > > > > police > > > > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news > > from it. > > > > There > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I > > > > know people > > > > > who > > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do > many others. > > > > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It > > > > started with > > > > a > > > > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage. > > > > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of > > some > > > truly > > > > > sick > > > > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the > suffering of > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion... > > > > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids > > > > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know > how that is > > > > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the > > > > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women > > > > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its > > > > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was > > > > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was > > > > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media > > > > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or > > > > > > > > > >confirm the reports.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do > > > > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does > > > > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets, > > > > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow > found her > > > > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the > > > > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more > > > > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a > Palestinian > > > > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of > > > > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and > > > > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was > > > > > > > > > >happening here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to > get there > > > > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came > > > > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt > > > > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady > > > > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which > > > > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for > > > > > > > > > >joy!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
