> -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Small [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:56 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Science, for dummies > > "The groups have been very vocal about their opinions on other matter... > how > is that not "making it public"?" > > So the "Anti-Abortion" groups are also known as the "Death Penalty" group? > Please show me that evidence.
Boy what a leap... I say "they've made their opinion on other subjects known" you hear "They're death penalty groups." At the very least you simplify - I offered many generalizations and you demand proof of a single fact. No, you're right. There is no "Death Penalty" group... however studies show that evangelical Christians tend to be pro-death penalty (due to the very biblical quotes which have been posted to this thread). The concept of "an eye for an eye" is clearly supportable by dogma (as in the concept of "live and let live" but we'll just ignore that one for now). Here are some nice overviews: http://www.roman-catholic.com/Roman/Articles/CapitalPunishment.htm http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/death_penalty.shtml http://www.beliefnet.com/story/81/story_8123_1.html http://www.probe.org/content/view/1139/47/ However, I agree, the support for the death penalty is often a "softer" issue and, as a group, they are not as fanatical about it. But for many of the other issues which I raised (and you ignored in favor of a polarized argument) there voices are clear. Pro-life groups have been very vocal on issues of birth control, stem cell research, euthanasia, cloning, etc. On all of these subjects there is no willingness to compromise. No willingness to craft solutions that will work as well as can be for everybody involved. The only answer given is complete and total legal elimination of the choices indicated. Remember: we are not asking them to euthanize a loved one or have an abortion. We are asking them to respect our right to choose to do these things. If I do not believe in God's law, and I live in a country where my right to not believe is one of our core foundations why should I be forced to follow it? > And again, does it matter where the morals come from? The opinion that you > seem to have doesn't appear to come from anywhere, so should I give yours > more standing than theirs? No - none. Neither of our opinions should inform laws on what others are allowed to do. Thank you for helping me to prove my point. > They have a belief that the human fetus is life. Your opinion appears to > be > that it is not. So therefore, based on the belief that it is life and it > is innocent, it's wrong to kill it. It has nothing to do with that - and it won't no matter how many times you attempt to simplify the issue. The ability to carry a baby, care for a baby or even want a baby does informs the decision to abort - not an opinion on whether or not it's "alive". It may make it easier for you to reduce the issue that argument: to say that it's as simple as that. That everybody that's even chosen abortion can just be convinced that the fetus is "alive" and everything will be better. But it's not the case. The vast majority of people which support and have had abortions do consider the fetus "alive". They may very well not consider it a "person", but that's a different issue. > I know that there are people who don't support choice and don't consider > themselves Christian, how about those people? Well - then they shouldn't get abortions should they. I'm talking about them FORCING their opinions on others and being unable to compromise about them. In most cases the inability to compromise is informed by dogma. Cases where it isn't may exist, but they are a small minority comparatively. > "I respond that while I respect their decision to follow "God" I remind > them > that not everybody believes as they do." > > And so what? When an act is wrong, it's wrong whether or not you believe > in > God. Does it matter whether or not you believe in God to feel that theft > is > wrong? How about murder? Again - a simplification designed to make a point about a complex issue where that simplification is ridiculous. The act is "wrong" only because of your belief. That's the difference. It may inform your decision but DOES NOT INFORM others. You may use societal guides for most things. "Murder" is wrong. It's considered wrong in nearly every culture across the board. Laws against murder are nearly universal. However abortion (and euthanasia) are NOT universally considered "murder". Socially and culturally they are distasteful but accepted (even primitive cultures had forms of abortion and conceptives). The very fact that there is such a split in society informs a pro-choice view. Those that believe the act is wrong should choose not to partake. Those that do not may. This can be seen in more prosaic things as well. Many people believe that sex before marriage is "wrong" (regardless of religion), many believe that it isn't. Society supports both views via choice but does not enforce either. However society can readily agree that sex with children is wrong - and so laws to prevent it are enacted. Many people believe that eating meat on Fridays during a certain time of year is "wrong". Many don't. Again, society protects both views via choice but does not legislate either. > Let's take this another step further - would it be ok to kill a child up > to > 3 years old if you didn't want it anymore? I think your answer would be > "No". This is an extreme case, but it differs only by degree from > abortion. It's not the same thing at all. Any child can be cared for without me. My resources and health are not affected if you take the child and care for it. The child, while not self-sustaining is at least sustainable without me. This is not the case with a fetus. There is no way (currently) to "abandon" a fetus or "put it up for adoption" - you would need to carry until it, dedicate resources to it, alter your life because of it until it became a child - which you could them abandon. The law provides options for parents who decide they can no longer care for a child - and, currently, it provides options for potential parents who decide that they cannot (or will not) care for a fetus. There are also those that believe that a fetus is alive, but that it's not yet a "person". They believe that to allow it to grow into a person - specifically an unwanted, unloved person - is wrong. More specifically they may compromise: abortion may be "wrong" (perhaps because it eliminates a clearly potential "person") but it is _less_ wrong than allowing an unwanted person to be born. Again, using your argument why is one "wrong" (informed by introspection, science, reasoning or whatever) incorrect compared other "wrong" (informed by religion, science, introspection or whatever)? Why should the first moral belief be illegal while the second legislated as law? This is my only argument: that religious belief in this area does NOT only inform personal decisions but rather a drive to force others to honor your beliefs. A drive to alter law and government to honor your beliefs over all others, no matter how widespread or culturally acceptable. That's my problem. The single person that makes their own decisions on the matter based on religious teachings is to be supported and encouraged to follow their own beliefs. Any attempt to force them away from their beliefs in this, their personal decision, should be opposed. By the same token any group that attempts to impose their opinions on society as a whole. That attempts to change foundational elements of our country to meet their dogmatic beliefs. Well - they should also be opposed. Jim Davis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Purchase Studio MX with Flash Pro from House of Fusion, a Macromedia Authorized Affiliate and support the CF community. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=51 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:174531 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
