Or, it might have been better if we didn't have the unconstitutional organization known as FEMA (or any of the other ones) and you would have had ALL of your income to spend and save as you saw fit.
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:37 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Poverty Challenge! > > I wasn't poor before the flood. I was definitely poor > afterwards. I got left with essentially a change of clothes > and an elderly pickup truck. And no income. That's pretty > poor. There's worse, but that was enough for me. > > My point being that not everyone who is currently having > money problems needs "fixing" or education. > > And btw renter's insurance covers only modest amounts of motel time. > I'm thinking a month. It took me about six months to get out > of a motel and a couple of years to fully recover. It might > have been less had FEMA been less dysfuncional, but fine. I'm > over that and this is merely an example. > > Dana > > On 6/26/07, Heald, Timothy (NIH/CIT) [C] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It honestly doesn't sound to me as though you were poor > when you were > > displaced by "an act of god" either. You had an apartment, > a computer > > and some sort of internet access. > > > > Sounds like you should have gotten insurance. > > > > Timothy J. Heald | NIH-Contractor | iGate nVision/NIH Data > Warehouse > > Project Enterprise Business Intelligence Branch (EBIB) Division of > > Enterprise and Custom Applications, CIT/NIH/DHHS > > 10401 Fernwood Road, Suite 3NE06N > > Bethesda, MD 20892 > > Office: 301.594.5611 > > Fax: 301.443.7010 > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dana [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:16 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: Poverty Challenge! > > > > > > What she said. > > > > > > But beyond that, it isn't always a matter of "teaching" > > > people. If you examine the term it means that I am right > and you are > > > wrong and I know and you don't. Cure? Perhaps poverty is > a disease, > > > but it isn't always the poor people that have it. Sometimes it's > > > society. What happens to all the kids who get shunted out > of school > > > because they are too hard to teach, do you think? > > > > > > To my mind a LARGE part of the problem is the mentality > that people > > > make poor choices and poverty happens as a result. > > > Such people certainly exist, but it is a stereotype that the > > > homeless and the poor are drug addicts and drunks. While > such people > > > exist, they are not the majority of the poor. The stereotype does > > > however go a long way towards reassuring the people who > are not poor > > > that no empathy is necessary, because this could never happen to > > > them, and all those people just need to work harded. > > > > > > The last homeless person I had any dealings with worked for the > > > local community college as a math tutor. She made enough money to > > > pay rent, but not enough to get together a security deposit. I > > > myself was in this position after I got caught in a flood > in Texas > > > and had to move out of the place I was living. FEMA kicked in > > > assistance in the amount of two months of rent for where > I had been > > > living but see -- that place was no longer available. And in that > > > small town in Texas all of the other rental housing was full of > > > relatives of the landlord, since I was far from the only person > > > displaced. And guess, what, rent in San Antonio was about three > > > times as much. > > > > > > Meantime the telecommute web design position I had went > away as I no > > > longer had a computer and could not get the work done in the half > > > hour a day of web access the local library allowed. Things went > > > downhill from there. What fixed the situation was definitely not > > > anybody giving me a fucking money management class. What I needed > > > was online access. > > > What I had access to were people that wanted to teach me > how to type. > > > > > > I find the whole suggestion a bit insulting actually. The > people I > > > have known who were poor all knew damn well what their > problems were > > > and what their choices were, and did not need some white > > > middle-class bureaucrat to come tell them that if they do drugs, > > > they might have trouble keeping a job. > > > Their problems were more along the lines of how to deal with the > > > young men who sat on the steps of their apartment > buildings selling > > > drugs. Or how to get their children to a library, since > there wasn't > > > one in their neighborhood. > > > > > > You think they didn't know that the neighborhood market was more > > > expensive than the supermarket? You think they didn't know that > > > saving for retirement might be a good thing? > > > > > > Let's go back to the girl in the youtube video. Do you > really think > > > that she woke up one morning and said wow, I think I'll turn down > > > this job that pays well and has medical insurance and take this > > > other job that doesn't use my education, and has no > health benefits > > > for the first six months? She says she took it to pay the bills, > > > Gruss, probably because maxing out a credit card was not > an option > > > for her. > > > > > > Finally I'd like to say that I have BEEN poor. I wasn't born poor > > > and I am not poor now, but I have been poor along the > way. And *I* > > > don't think it's possible to reduce a discussion of > poverty to a few > > > hundred words. Perhaps this will help you understand why I think > > > it's so arrogant for someone to attempt to diagnose and > "cure" the > > > condition. > > > > > > Max out a credit card? If you're fighting over minimum wage work > > > credit cards are... wow. You might as well tell someone to wave > > > their magic wand. Move, sure. With what, their teeth? > > > If you are flat broke you may be barely staying housed. > How do you > > > propose that people rent a truck, store their belongings, > stay at a > > > hotel unil they find a place to live, and pay all the associated > > > security deposits? It's a facile superficial solution that does > > > nothing but make the person proposing it feel superior to > the person > > > who is unable to implement it. > > > > > > ::sigh:: > > > > > > On 6/26/07, Deanna Schneider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 6/25/07, Gruss Gott <g> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Helped" means fixing whatever psychological/drug/whatever > > > > > issues they have, and then teaching them how to live > in our society. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it interesting that you would put it that way - "live in > > > > our society." They're already living in our society. > What they're > > > > not doing is living by the rules of middle class > society. There's > > > > one really well known self-proclaimed expert on poverty that > > > has written a > > > > book about the hidden rules of socio-economic groups. She's > > > come under > > > > fire because much of what she's written is anecdotal. But, a > > > > fairly large contingent of scholars in the field have > adopted her verbiage. > > > > The book is Bridges out of Poverty, by Ruby Payne. I've not > > > read the > > > > whole book, only excerpts. But, what I've read has been > > > good food for > > > > thought. I'm not sure I'm in total agreement with what she > > > says. But, > > > > one of her big points is that in order for people to > move from one > > > > socio-economic class to another, they have to learn the > > > hidden rules. > > > > And, she purports that it is equally true for those going > > > from poverty > > > > to middle class as from middle to upper crust. > > > > > > > > The reverse is true - for people in middle or upper classes to > > > > understand poverty, they must learn about the rules by > which those > > > > people in poverty live. Thus, it's not as simple as > just educating > > > > someone. It's helping someone make a new cultural identity. > > > If we were > > > > asked to move to someplace with a culture not like our own, I > > > > would imagine that most of us would have at least some > fear about > > > it - it's > > > > difficult to leave what you know (where you may have > been the most > > > > successful pantry "shopper" in the hood), who you know (your > > > > family and best friends may be trying to keep you in > poverty with > > > them), and > > > > where you know (living in bad neighborhoods decreases your > > > likelihood > > > > of getting out of poverty). Can it be done? Yes. Is it > simple or > > > > cheap? No. Does it involve maxing out a credit card? Highly > > > unlikely. > > > > > > > > I love your sense of optimism & idealism, Gruss. I've watched > > > > throughout this thread as you've modified your initial > statements > > > > from, essentially, "if people just didn't screw up > their lives to > > > > begin with they wouldn't wind up in poverty" to a much more > > > reasoned > > > > approach that given the right tools, many in poverty > could get out. > > > > So, perhaps this thread has broadened your perspective. I > > > don't know > > > > that putting a number on it (what percentage of people > > > could get out, > > > > given the right tools) is a worthwhile exercise. It's just > > > > postulating. Because (and here comes the cynic in me) > it's highly > > > > unlikely that most people in poverty would be given the > right tools. > > > > Our social welfare system is overburdened and underfunded. > > > > Accurate statistics on what works and what doesn't are hard to > > > > come by, but there is some research on Wisconsin's > welfare reform program here: > > > > http://www.irp.wisc.edu/research/welreform/wisconsin.htm > > > > > > > > People site Wisconsin as being a shining example of > welfare reform. > > > > But, if you dig deeper, the research shows that while > people are > > > > getting off welfare, they're not necessarily getting > out of poverty. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Macromedia ColdFusion MX7 Upgrade to MX7 & experience time-saving features, more productivity. http://www.adobe.com/products/coldfusion?sdid=RVJW Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:237419 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
