On Jan 3, 2008 1:32 PM, William Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And wouldn't that, from a believer's point of view, *also* be included > in the preordained?
I don't know...what's the "preordained"? Here's the thing: the basic assumption is that '[deity] knows all.' > > Does it not follow, then, that any choice you make, is already known? I'm sure it varies, but generally speaking, I think that's how the Christians view it. If so, how then can it still be considered a choice? [Deity] already > knows what the choice will be and all the choices/consequences, etc. > that follow. Please remember that I am only trying to restate and understand their argument, not making my own argument here....with that said.... I think the teaching goes that you are always free to make your choice.....even if He, the Big Tuna, already knows what you are going to choose. Doesn't mean he affected your choice, or deprived you of your free will...He simply knew what you, of your freewill, would choose. Therefore, no free will. You still made the choice, of your own free will. Your choice was not predetermined, even though He knew what you were going to choose. I think the only way to recognize this is to elevate it above the natural to the supernatural.... "How did he know what you were going to choose if it was totally of your own free will?" "Because he's God, that's why." That's why they call it faith. I don't believe that [deity] is actively meddling in my life as i > don't believe in [deity]. I know YOU don't, i was talking about the believers et. al. > Free will isn't a problem for me to get my head around, or to exercise > on a daily basis. I just don't see how one can claim to believe in an > all-knowing/seeing deity and still claim to have free will. I know analogies usually fail, but lets say you are a father, and you present your child with 100 multiple choice questions. Just random question. You guess what he will answer on all 100 questions, and you get every one of them right. You didn't affect his free choice, but you knew what he was going to choose..... A believer would believe essentially the same thing about God, that he knows their choices in advance, without affecting them...even if they can't speak as to HOW he knows, WHY he knows, etc. Again, this is where you would have to have "faith". You honestly don't see the contradiction in your statements? > Of course I do.....but they aren't my statements, just my understanding of what the believers...believe. -- I've weighed out every option This scale's not fit for advice ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:249610 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
