Judith, I am happy to discuss the problem. I believe I inherited the problem from my mother, she is also bi-polar. I learned that I had the condition during high school. I was exhibiting a lot of the same systems my mom had exhibited, sleeping a lot, wanting to be alone, and a slew of other things. My doctor prescribed Prozac and within about a month both my family and I noticed a difference, the same as with my mother.
Kevin -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 12:21 PM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: From the OMFG files I will agree that Kevin and Larry seem to equally flame each other. Please do try not to insult one another when you are arguing, guys. (Sometimes these insults can be unintentional.) If you want to fight, you can always take it off list. : ) I have, however, learned a lot from the arguments on both sides. So thanks for the info. Kevin, I am curious -- when and how did you learn you had bi-polar disorder (if you don't mind talking about it). If it's too personal, feel free to say "None of your business." Thanks, Judith >Ben, > >I have only directed criticism at one person, Larry, who has directed >equal criticism and flame right back at me. > >Kevin > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:49 AM >To: CF-Community >Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > >Kevin > >I don't usually outright flame people on this list, but I'll make an >exception in your case. > >This is a community, with many different points of view. Usually we >agree to >disagree, and things don't get heated, only warm. > >Cannot recall anybody else on this list with the blatant chip on the >shoulder and rudeness you exhibit to other members of our community. > >I will not read any more posts from you. > >-Ben > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:55 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > Glad to see you realize the error of your ways and stop talking about > > it. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:53 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > This conversation is ended. > > > > -- > > Larry C. Lyons > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > EBStor.com > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > http://www.pacel.com > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > -- > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:49 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > I can only assume the specific analysis you are referring > > to is what I > > > stated about my personal experience. It is you who chose to try and > > > analyze it, and of course broadcast it to the list, rather > > than send a > > > private email. I chose to disclose my condition, you chose > > > to send out > > > your email. To be honest I really don't give a shit what you > > > think. If > > > I did I would of asked, Hey Larry why don't you send me > > some info. I > > > still think you are a hypocrite and I have plenty of ammo > > > from this list > > > to back up my argument. > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:43 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > some anger yes. Would it have been better to have said "Mike > > > chill out." > > > Probably. However I have yet to see a professional diagnosis > > > start out, > > > "Mike, you're nuts and really need some Prozac" talk". > > Then again, in > > > the > > > clinic etc we would use that sort of talk with us. > > > > > > The problem is that the discussion of irrational beliefs > > began to lead > > > towards the start of a very specific analysis. One can talk > > in general > > > about > > > this, but it was getting far to close to my acting like a > > professional > > > psychologist when I am not licensed to be such. You can say > > things in > > > general, but there were factors in the conversation that were > > > simply too > > > close. Because of that I have to back off. > > > > > > larry > > > > > > -- > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > EBStor.com > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > -- > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Michael Corrigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:33 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone with > > > > whom I'm interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > > > > > Then what was all of that "Mike, you're nuts and really need > > > > some Prozac" talk....;-) > > > > > > > > I'm telling.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Corrigan > > > > Programmer > > > > Endora Digital Solutions > > > > 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > > > 630-627-5055 ext.-136 > > > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Larry Lyons > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:29 AM > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > You do not understand then. I have not made any judgements > > > > or ascribed any > > > > blame regarding anyone on this list. I suggested that you > > > > look at these > > > > beliefs and see if they apply to you. If you have read that > > > > material, you > > > > would see where I am coming from, these beliefs are > > > > endemic, to some extent > > > > we all endorse one or more of these beliefs. > > > > > > > > I am not saying one way or another whether any of these > > > > beliefs specifically > > > > apply or not. For me to go further would be a violation of > > > > professional > > > > ethics. I can not and will not play psychologist here. I am > > > > not a licensed > > > > clinical psychologist. I can discuss my research, political > > > > opinions etc. > > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone > > with whom I'm > > > > interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > > EBStor.com > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:20 AM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > I'll read all this at lunch but would like to point out one > > > > > thing that I > > > > > saw in my cursory scan > > > > > > > > > > "I'm quite willing to be that you endorse many of these > > > irrational > > > > > beliefs." > > > > > > > > > > Now by saying that you are one giant hypocrite. Remember > > > > > when I accused > > > > > you of wearing blinders about Clinton. You exploded > > > > with, You don't > > > > > know me...you can't stereotype me...yada yada yada. Well that > > > > > statement > > > > > you made seems to me you did just the same thing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:12 AM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, > > > > > > > > > > First off to the CF-Community - this is a large note, really > > > > > large. Its > > > > > partially taken from my master's thesis and some material > > > > scraped off > > > > > the > > > > > web. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:08 AM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > > > I suffer from bi-polar depression and no matter how > > > > depressed I get, > > > > > > which isn't very often as I have medication for it. But > > > > > even before I > > > > > > was diagnosed and took the medication I never felt > > the desire > > > > > > to embrace > > > > > > irrational beliefs. I just don't buy it, sorry. Just look > > > > > > at any court > > > > > > case where any type of mental disability or incapacity is > > > > > > involved. The > > > > > > defense has an expert on their side saying that it's a > > > > > problem and the > > > > > > prosecution has an expert saying that it's not. When it > > > > > > comes to matter > > > > > > of the mind, which "expert" do you believe? In this > > > > case, with my > > > > > > personal experience, I don't buy the depression bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look at the person's publications etc. In other words his > > > > > professional > > > > > reputation. I'd rather trust a Aaron Beck of SUNY rather > > > > than someone > > > > > with a > > > > > terminal masters from a no-name bible college. > > > > > > > > > > Moreover some definitions are needed, I think that there is a > > > > > disconnect > > > > > between what you call irrational beliefs and what I use for > > > > > the term. To > > > > > me > > > > > its a fairly operationally defined type of cognition. > > - btw the > > > > > following > > > > > is taken from > > > > > http://www.scs.unt.edu/classes/RHAB/5300/RationalEmotiveBehavi > > > > > orTherapy. > > > > > html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > To start, our thinking, emoting and acting all interact > > > together. > > > > > Nothing is > > > > > experienced in isolation. Emotion is said to have no > > > > single cause or > > > > > result > > > > > but can result from the senses, the stimulation of the > > > > nervous system, > > > > > thinking about something that has importance or calling up > > > > > thoughts of a > > > > > previous emotional experience. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to control the emotions, there are four major > > > > > ways to do so. > > > > > The > > > > > first is by electric shock or with drugs. The second > > > way to change > > > > > behavior > > > > > is to utilize another system such as physical movement or > > > > variation in > > > > > breathing. Emotional states and prejudices can be seen as > > > > motives to > > > > > change. > > > > > The last way is to use your thinking and exert > > control with your > > > > > thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > The roots of maladjustment are Irrational Beliefs (iBs). These > > > > > irrational > > > > > beliefs significantly contribute to or "cause" emotional and > > > > > behavioral > > > > > disturbances. Dysfunctional, negative, or other > > > > > self-defeating ideas can > > > > > cause a person to be neurotic and disturbed. Irrational > > > > Beliefs (iBs) > > > > > are > > > > > beliefs that are unrealistic, illogical, absolutist and held > > > > > to tightly > > > > > even > > > > > when they can't be proven. In contrast, an adjusted person's > > > > > thinking is > > > > > logical and realistic most of the time. People who are less > > > > > neurotic and > > > > > self-defeating are also those who are flexible and not > > > > > dogmatic in their > > > > > thinking. Ellis (1994) hypothesized that emotionally > > > > disturbed people > > > > > commonly have a number of iBs and practically all of them > > > > arise from > > > > > their > > > > > taking a sensible preference or desire and raising it to > > > > a grandiose, > > > > > absolutist must or demand. Within the REBT framework, > > > > people who hold > > > > > the > > > > > irrational demand that they absolutely must perform well > > > > at certain > > > > > tasks > > > > > and relationships often use poor thinking methods to > > > confirm these > > > > > ideas. > > > > > People truly diagnosed as disturbed or maladjusted > > > display similar > > > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > > > When an undesirable or unfortunate activating event or > > > > adversity (A) > > > > > occurs, > > > > > two routes can be followed. A person experiencing the > > > > event can choose > > > > > to > > > > > respond and develop a rational belief (rB) which is a > > > > belief that is > > > > > self-helping or socially acceptable to the community as a > > > > > whole. Others > > > > > may > > > > > respond to the activating event with (iBs). In both cases, > > > > > there will be > > > > > consequences (Cs). A pers! on with (iBs) may develop unhealthy > > > > > consequences > > > > > (Cs) such as depression. The opposite is true for the > > person who > > > > > responds > > > > > with (rBs) they may feel sorrow or regret but the (Cs) > > > > that result are > > > > > healthier for the person. > > > > > > > > > > The method of enhancing adjustment is to teach a person > > > > to dispute his > > > > > iBs > > > > > and develop an effective new philosophy. Even when the > > > > > activating event > > > > > is a > > > > > fatal illness, REBT techniques can be employed. It is > > > > unlikely that an > > > > > individual will be able to think rationally all the > > > time. Even as > > > > > children > > > > > we are open to suggestion and we may easily take on > > > > destructive ideas > > > > > from > > > > > our parents or from our culture. Additionally, we have a > > > > strong innate > > > > > tendency to take any strong desire and make it something > > > > necessary to > > > > > have. > > > > > We also have innate and acquired self-defeating tendencies: > > > > > we take our > > > > > goals and desires and transform them into demands and > > > > commands. This > > > > > tendency is both biological and socially learned. In the > > > > early days of > > > > > humanity, this may have been a life-preserving tool. Early > > > > > humans had to > > > > > ward off dangerous encounters. Though therapy can't change > > > > > all the ideas > > > > > we > > > > > are exposed to, it can help us think more effectively. > > > > > -- > > > > > Generally these beliefs include Black and white thinking > > > > (absolutism); > > > > > Filtering; Over-generalisation; Mind-reading; > > > > > Fortune-telling; Emotional > > > > > reasoning and Personalising. Here are some typical > > > > Irrational Beliefs > > > > > (your > > > > > milage may vary). > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > I need love and approval from those significant to me - and I > > > > > must avoid > > > > > disapproval from any source). > > > > > > > > > > To be worthwhile as a person I must achieve, succeed at > > > > whatever I do, > > > > > and > > > > > make no mistakes. Perfectionism > > > > > > > > > > People should always do the right thing. When they behave > > > > obnoxiously, > > > > > unfairly or selfishly, they must be blamed and punished. > > > > > > > > > > Things must be the way I want them to be, oth-erwise > > > life will be > > > > > intolerable. > > > > > > > > > > My unhappiness is caused by things that are out-side my > > > > control - so > > > > > there > > > > > is little I can do to feel any better. > > > > > > > > > > I must worry about things that could be danger-ous, > > > unpleasant or > > > > > frightening - otherwise they might happen. > > > > > > > > > > I can be happier by avoiding life's difficulties, > > > > unpleasantness, and > > > > > responsibilities. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone needs to depend on someone stronger than themselves. > > > > > > > > > > Events in my past are the cause of my problems - and they > > > > continue to > > > > > influence my feelings and behaviours now. > > > > > > > > > > I should become upset when other people have problems, and > > > > > feel unhappy > > > > > when > > > > > they're sad. > > > > > > > > > > I shouldn't have to feel discomfort and pain - I can't > > > > stand them and > > > > > must > > > > > avoid them at all costs. > > > > > > > > > > Every problem should have an ideal solution - and it's > > > > > intolerable when > > > > > one > > > > > can't be found. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Now given that, in the research I've conducted, we have used > > > > > standardized > > > > > tests that looked the degree of endorsement of irrational > > > > beliefs. We > > > > > found > > > > > significant relationships between the number and > > > magnitude of the > > > > > irrational > > > > > beliefs and high levels of depression, anxiety, and > > > > generalized anger > > > > > among > > > > > others. Those people with high levels of depression, anxiety, > > > > > generalized > > > > > anger etc tended to endorse more of these irrational beliefs > > > > > that those > > > > > who > > > > > were not depressed, anxious etc. These relationships were > > > > very similar > > > > > for > > > > > university student samples, participants from community > > > > > colleges, office > > > > > workers, people working in industrial plants, hospitals and > > > > > residents of > > > > > senior care homes. These relationships held up across > > > considerably > > > > > different > > > > > samples, which suggests to me that similar relationships > > > > > would be found > > > > > if > > > > > we were able to assess the entire population rather than these > > > > > independent > > > > > samples. > > > > > > > > > > In terms of a psychotherapy, REBT has been found to be > > > > very effective, > > > > > as > > > > > evidenced by literally hundreds of studies (see Lyons & > > > > Woods, 1990, > > > > > online > > > > > version at > > > http://www.lyonsmorris.com/maret/RETstudy1.htm). It is also > > > > been > > > > found to be effective when combined with psychotropic > > > medication for > > > > bipolar > > > > conditions as well. However I do not have my references here > > > > at work so > > > > I'll > > > > have to get back to you on that one. > > > > > > > > Now given that very long winded explanation, I'm quite > > > willing to be > > > > that > > > > you endorse many of these irrational beliefs. However > > it would be > > > > unethical > > > > of me to explore this further in public. Moreover I let > > > my training > > > in > > > > this > > > > area lapse years ago, so it would not be appropriate to go > > > > any further. > > > > What > > > > I can say is look over those 12 self-statements and consider how > > > often > > > > you > > > > say them, or something similar to yourself. Then look > > at how many > > > you > > > > endorsed, the results may be quite surprising. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > > EBStor.com > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
