I will add that you both need to read my message from when I was really pissed at howard. But I will paraphrase.
Argue about the ISSUE, dont' insult each other. Dont' presume to know what someone else thinks or said. You should never use the word YOU in a debate about something because you aren't talking about each other. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > I will agree that Kevin and Larry seem to equally flame each other. Please > do try not to insult one another when you are arguing, guys. (Sometimes > these insults can be unintentional.) If you want to fight, you can always > take it off list. : ) > > I have, however, learned a lot from the arguments on both sides. So thanks > for the info. > > Kevin, I am curious -- when and how did you learn you had bi-polar disorder > (if you don't mind talking about it). If it's too personal, feel free to > say "None of your business." > > Thanks, > > Judith > > >Ben, > > > >I have only directed criticism at one person, Larry, who has directed > >equal criticism and flame right back at me. > > > >Kevin > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:49 AM > >To: CF-Community > >Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > >Kevin > > > >I don't usually outright flame people on this list, but I'll make an > >exception in your case. > > > >This is a community, with many different points of view. Usually we > >agree to > >disagree, and things don't get heated, only warm. > > > >Cannot recall anybody else on this list with the blatant chip on the > >shoulder and rudeness you exhibit to other members of our community. > > > >I will not read any more posts from you. > > > >-Ben > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:55 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > Glad to see you realize the error of your ways and stop talking about > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:53 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > This conversation is ended. > > > > > > -- > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > EBStor.com > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > -- > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:49 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > I can only assume the specific analysis you are referring > > > to is what I > > > > stated about my personal experience. It is you who chose to try and > > > > analyze it, and of course broadcast it to the list, rather > > > than send a > > > > private email. I chose to disclose my condition, you chose > > > > to send out > > > > your email. To be honest I really don't give a shit what you > > > > think. If > > > > I did I would of asked, Hey Larry why don't you send me > > > some info. I > > > > still think you are a hypocrite and I have plenty of ammo > > > > from this list > > > > to back up my argument. > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:43 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > some anger yes. Would it have been better to have said "Mike > > > > chill out." > > > > Probably. However I have yet to see a professional diagnosis > > > > start out, > > > > "Mike, you're nuts and really need some Prozac" talk". > > > Then again, in > > > > the > > > > clinic etc we would use that sort of talk with us. > > > > > > > > The problem is that the discussion of irrational beliefs > > > began to lead > > > > towards the start of a very specific analysis. One can talk > > > in general > > > > about > > > > this, but it was getting far to close to my acting like a > > > professional > > > > psychologist when I am not licensed to be such. You can say > > > things in > > > > general, but there were factors in the conversation that were > > > > simply too > > > > close. Because of that I have to back off. > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > > EBStor.com > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Michael Corrigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:33 AM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: Re: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone with > > > > > whom I'm interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > > > > > > > Then what was all of that "Mike, you're nuts and really need > > > > > some Prozac" talk....;-) > > > > > > > > > > I'm telling.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Corrigan > > > > > Programmer > > > > > Endora Digital Solutions > > > > > 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > > > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > > > > 630-627-5055 ext.-136 > > > > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Larry Lyons > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:29 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do not understand then. I have not made any judgements > > > > > or ascribed any > > > > > blame regarding anyone on this list. I suggested that you > > > > > look at these > > > > > beliefs and see if they apply to you. If you have read that > > > > > material, you > > > > > would see where I am coming from, these beliefs are > > > > > endemic, to some extent > > > > > we all endorse one or more of these beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > I am not saying one way or another whether any of these > > > > > beliefs specifically > > > > > apply or not. For me to go further would be a violation of > > > > > professional > > > > > ethics. I can not and will not play psychologist here. I am > > > > > not a licensed > > > > > clinical psychologist. I can discuss my research, political > > > > > opinions etc. > > > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone > > > with whom I'm > > > > > interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > > > EBStor.com > > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:20 AM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll read all this at lunch but would like to point out one > > > > > > thing that I > > > > > > saw in my cursory scan > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'm quite willing to be that you endorse many of these > > > > irrational > > > > > > beliefs." > > > > > > > > > > > > Now by saying that you are one giant hypocrite. Remember > > > > > > when I accused > > > > > > you of wearing blinders about Clinton. You exploded > > > > > with, You don't > > > > > > know me...you can't stereotype me...yada yada yada. Well that > > > > > > statement > > > > > > you made seems to me you did just the same thing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:12 AM > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin, > > > > > > > > > > > > First off to the CF-Community - this is a large note, really > > > > > > large. Its > > > > > > partially taken from my master's thesis and some material > > > > > scraped off > > > > > > the > > > > > > web. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:08 AM > > > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suffer from bi-polar depression and no matter how > > > > > depressed I get, > > > > > > > which isn't very often as I have medication for it. But > > > > > > even before I > > > > > > > was diagnosed and took the medication I never felt > > > the desire > > > > > > > to embrace > > > > > > > irrational beliefs. I just don't buy it, sorry. Just look > > > > > > > at any court > > > > > > > case where any type of mental disability or incapacity is > > > > > > > involved. The > > > > > > > defense has an expert on their side saying that it's a > > > > > > problem and the > > > > > > > prosecution has an expert saying that it's not. When it > > > > > > > comes to matter > > > > > > > of the mind, which "expert" do you believe? In this > > > > > case, with my > > > > > > > personal experience, I don't buy the depression bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look at the person's publications etc. In other words his > > > > > > professional > > > > > > reputation. I'd rather trust a Aaron Beck of SUNY rather > > > > > than someone > > > > > > with a > > > > > > terminal masters from a no-name bible college. > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover some definitions are needed, I think that there is a > > > > > > disconnect > > > > > > between what you call irrational beliefs and what I use for > > > > > > the term. To > > > > > > me > > > > > > its a fairly operationally defined type of cognition. > > > - btw the > > > > > > following > > > > > > is taken from > > > > > > http://www.scs.unt.edu/classes/RHAB/5300/RationalEmotiveBehavi > > > > > > orTherapy. > > > > > > html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > To start, our thinking, emoting and acting all interact > > > > together. > > > > > > Nothing is > > > > > > experienced in isolation. Emotion is said to have no > > > > > single cause or > > > > > > result > > > > > > but can result from the senses, the stimulation of the > > > > > nervous system, > > > > > > thinking about something that has importance or calling up > > > > > > thoughts of a > > > > > > previous emotional experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to control the emotions, there are four major > > > > > > ways to do so. > > > > > > The > > > > > > first is by electric shock or with drugs. The second > > > > way to change > > > > > > behavior > > > > > > is to utilize another system such as physical movement or > > > > > variation in > > > > > > breathing. Emotional states and prejudices can be seen as > > > > > motives to > > > > > > change. > > > > > > The last way is to use your thinking and exert > > > control with your > > > > > > thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > The roots of maladjustment are Irrational Beliefs (iBs). These > > > > > > irrational > > > > > > beliefs significantly contribute to or "cause" emotional and > > > > > > behavioral > > > > > > disturbances. Dysfunctional, negative, or other > > > > > > self-defeating ideas can > > > > > > cause a person to be neurotic and disturbed. Irrational > > > > > Beliefs (iBs) > > > > > > are > > > > > > beliefs that are unrealistic, illogical, absolutist and held > > > > > > to tightly > > > > > > even > > > > > > when they can't be proven. In contrast, an adjusted person's > > > > > > thinking is > > > > > > logical and realistic most of the time. People who are less > > > > > > neurotic and > > > > > > self-defeating are also those who are flexible and not > > > > > > dogmatic in their > > > > > > thinking. Ellis (1994) hypothesized that emotionally > > > > > disturbed people > > > > > > commonly have a number of iBs and practically all of them > > > > > arise from > > > > > > their > > > > > > taking a sensible preference or desire and raising it to > > > > > a grandiose, > > > > > > absolutist must or demand. Within the REBT framework, > > > > > people who hold > > > > > > the > > > > > > irrational demand that they absolutely must perform well > > > > > at certain > > > > > > tasks > > > > > > and relationships often use poor thinking methods to > > > > confirm these > > > > > > ideas. > > > > > > People truly diagnosed as disturbed or maladjusted > > > > display similar > > > > > > ideas. > > > > > > > > > > > > When an undesirable or unfortunate activating event or > > > > > adversity (A) > > > > > > occurs, > > > > > > two routes can be followed. A person experiencing the > > > > > event can choose > > > > > > to > > > > > > respond and develop a rational belief (rB) which is a > > > > > belief that is > > > > > > self-helping or socially acceptable to the community as a > > > > > > whole. Others > > > > > > may > > > > > > respond to the activating event with (iBs). In both cases, > > > > > > there will be > > > > > > consequences (Cs). A pers! on with (iBs) may develop unhealthy > > > > > > consequences > > > > > > (Cs) such as depression. The opposite is true for the > > > person who > > > > > > responds > > > > > > with (rBs) they may feel sorrow or regret but the (Cs) > > > > > that result are > > > > > > healthier for the person. > > > > > > > > > > > > The method of enhancing adjustment is to teach a person > > > > > to dispute his > > > > > > iBs > > > > > > and develop an effective new philosophy. Even when the > > > > > > activating event > > > > > > is a > > > > > > fatal illness, REBT techniques can be employed. It is > > > > > unlikely that an > > > > > > individual will be able to think rationally all the > > > > time. Even as > > > > > > children > > > > > > we are open to suggestion and we may easily take on > > > > > destructive ideas > > > > > > from > > > > > > our parents or from our culture. Additionally, we have a > > > > > strong innate > > > > > > tendency to take any strong desire and make it something > > > > > necessary to > > > > > > have. > > > > > > We also have innate and acquired self-defeating tendencies: > > > > > > we take our > > > > > > goals and desires and transform them into demands and > > > > > commands. This > > > > > > tendency is both biological and socially learned. In the > > > > > early days of > > > > > > humanity, this may have been a life-preserving tool. Early > > > > > > humans had to > > > > > > ward off dangerous encounters. Though therapy can't change > > > > > > all the ideas > > > > > > we > > > > > > are exposed to, it can help us think more effectively. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Generally these beliefs include Black and white thinking > > > > > (absolutism); > > > > > > Filtering; Over-generalisation; Mind-reading; > > > > > > Fortune-telling; Emotional > > > > > > reasoning and Personalising. Here are some typical > > > > > Irrational Beliefs > > > > > > (your > > > > > > milage may vary). > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > I need love and approval from those significant to me - and I > > > > > > must avoid > > > > > > disapproval from any source). > > > > > > > > > > > > To be worthwhile as a person I must achieve, succeed at > > > > > whatever I do, > > > > > > and > > > > > > make no mistakes. Perfectionism > > > > > > > > > > > > People should always do the right thing. When they behave > > > > > obnoxiously, > > > > > > unfairly or selfishly, they must be blamed and punished. > > > > > > > > > > > > Things must be the way I want them to be, oth-erwise > > > > life will be > > > > > > intolerable. > > > > > > > > > > > > My unhappiness is caused by things that are out-side my > > > > > control - so > > > > > > there > > > > > > is little I can do to feel any better. > > > > > > > > > > > > I must worry about things that could be danger-ous, > > > > unpleasant or > > > > > > frightening - otherwise they might happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can be happier by avoiding life's difficulties, > > > > > unpleasantness, and > > > > > > responsibilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone needs to depend on someone stronger than themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > Events in my past are the cause of my problems - and they > > > > > continue to > > > > > > influence my feelings and behaviours now. > > > > > > > > > > > > I should become upset when other people have problems, and > > > > > > feel unhappy > > > > > > when > > > > > > they're sad. > > > > > > > > > > > > I shouldn't have to feel discomfort and pain - I can't > > > > > stand them and > > > > > > must > > > > > > avoid them at all costs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every problem should have an ideal solution - and it's > > > > > > intolerable when > > > > > > one > > > > > > can't be found. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Now given that, in the research I've conducted, we have used > > > > > > standardized > > > > > > tests that looked the degree of endorsement of irrational > > > > > beliefs. We > > > > > > found > > > > > > significant relationships between the number and > > > > magnitude of the > > > > > > irrational > > > > > > beliefs and high levels of depression, anxiety, and > > > > > generalized anger > > > > > > among > > > > > > others. Those people with high levels of depression, anxiety, > > > > > > generalized > > > > > > anger etc tended to endorse more of these irrational beliefs > > > > > > that those > > > > > > who > > > > > > were not depressed, anxious etc. These relationships were > > > > > very similar > > > > > > for > > > > > > university student samples, participants from community > > > > > > colleges, office > > > > > > workers, people working in industrial plants, hospitals and > > > > > > residents of > > > > > > senior care homes. These relationships held up across > > > > considerably > > > > > > different > > > > > > samples, which suggests to me that similar relationships > > > > > > would be found > > > > > > if > > > > > > we were able to assess the entire population rather than these > > > > > > independent > > > > > > samples. > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of a psychotherapy, REBT has been found to be > > > > > very effective, > > > > > > as > > > > > > evidenced by literally hundreds of studies (see Lyons & > > > > > Woods, 1990, > > > > > > online > > > > > > version at > > > > http://www.lyonsmorris.com/maret/RETstudy1.htm). It is also > > > > > been > > > > > found to be effective when combined with psychotropic > > > > medication for > > > > > bipolar > > > > > conditions as well. However I do not have my references here > > > > > at work so > > > > > I'll > > > > > have to get back to you on that one. > > > > > > > > > > Now given that very long winded explanation, I'm quite > > > > willing to be > > > > > that > > > > > you endorse many of these irrational beliefs. However > > > it would be > > > > > unethical > > > > > of me to explore this further in public. Moreover I let > > > > my training > > > > in > > > > > this > > > > > area lapse years ago, so it would not be appropriate to go > > > > > any further. > > > > > What > > > > > I can say is look over those 12 self-statements and consider how > > > > often > > > > > you > > > > > say them, or something similar to yourself. Then look > > > at how many > > > > you > > > > > endorsed, the results may be quite surprising. > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > larry > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Larry C. Lyons > > > > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > > > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > > > > EBStor.com > > > > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > > > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > > > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > > > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > > > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > > > > http://www.pacel.com > > > > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
