Great, so when I'm praying, rather than getting closer to God, I'm closer to having a seizure! I'd better watch it then!
Thanks for the insight. I totally don't want it to shift to a theological debate at all. Just to better understand how the physical might relate to the metaphysical or spiritual. You always hear things like "We only use 10% of our brains capacity" and I just wonder what the hell we could do if we used the other 90. I'll bet I could turn you into a conservative!;^) If not, then I would try to turn you into an Newt...Gingrich that is...Would you consider that a fate worse than death? Joking...I kid..I kid! Michael Corrigan Programmer Endora Digital Solutions 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 Lombard, IL 60148 630-627-5055 ext.-136 630/627-5255 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Lyons To: CF-Community Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:17 AM Subject: RE: From the OMFG files I'm not familiar with any studies. Personally I'm very skeptical. There's been a regular feature on the track records of various psychics and clairvoyants in the magazine the Skeptical Inquirer. Overall, their accuracy has been slight below chance. Moreover I'm not too sure how to set up a good experiment to test such. Rhine cards are easily spoofed, scientists are as likely to be taken in by cold reading as any one else, how to control for compliance effects etc. Now I'm not familiar with any neurophysiological research in the area, a good place to start is the American Psychological Association (http://www.apa.org) or the American Psychological Society (http://www.psychologicalscience.org/) web sites. One interesting study I recall, I'll have to dig up the citation for it, found that there was a fairly unique pattern of EEG during religious epiphany - however it was very similar to what is seen in temporal load epilepsy. That leads to an obvious question that I do not want to touch. Instead of just getting flamed virtually, I'd probably be burned at the stake. Regardless, trying to test that EEG relationship would be another impossible experiment unfortunately. larry -- Larry C. Lyons ColdFusion/Web Developer Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer EBStor.com 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 tel: (703) 393-7930 fax: (703) 393-2659 Web: http://www.ebstor.com http://www.pacel.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. -- > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Corrigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:00 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: From the OMFG files > > > I was joking with you man! Sheesh, so serious. ;^) > > Hell, if I knew as much about psychology stuff as you do, I'd > be totally messing with people! Not so much as to hurt > someone, but more just to see how crazy I could make someone > before they went truly nuts. > > But seriously, I have this strange fear of door handles, do > you think that it somehow stems from my childhood? (that was > a joke too!) > > Actually, what's your take on things like 'clairvoyants' like > John Edwards or psychic George. Is there any evidence that > shows that these sort of abilities are possible? I'm not > debating whether these guys are legit, but just if you have > any insight as to whether there is some scientific evidence > that these folks or others like them have a real gift or is > it more likely a scam. you mentioned that things like MRI's > can pick up brain activity. I was wondering if you knew of > studies that demonstrates that these people have distinct > brain patterns. I'm not trying to start some whacky debate > here. I consider you an expert and respect your opinion on > such matters. > > Michael Corrigan > Programmer > Endora Digital Solutions > 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > Lombard, IL 60148 > 630-627-5055 ext.-136 > 630/627-5255 Fax > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Lyons > To: CF-Community > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:43 AM > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > some anger yes. Would it have been better to have said > "Mike chill out." > Probably. However I have yet to see a professional > diagnosis start out, > "Mike, you're nuts and really need some Prozac" talk". > Then again, in the > clinic etc we would use that sort of talk with us. > > The problem is that the discussion of irrational beliefs > began to lead > towards the start of a very specific analysis. One can talk > in general about > this, but it was getting far to close to my acting like a > professional > psychologist when I am not licensed to be such. You can say > things in > general, but there were factors in the conversation that > were simply too > close. Because of that I have to back off. > > larry > > -- > Larry C. Lyons > ColdFusion/Web Developer > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > EBStor.com > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > tel: (703) 393-7930 > fax: (703) 393-2659 > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > http://www.pacel.com > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > -- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Corrigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:33 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone with > > whom I'm interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > Then what was all of that "Mike, you're nuts and really need > > some Prozac" talk....;-) > > > > I'm telling.... > > > > > > Michael Corrigan > > Programmer > > Endora Digital Solutions > > 1900 Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > 630-627-5055 ext.-136 > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Larry Lyons > > To: CF-Community > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:29 AM > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > You do not understand then. I have not made any judgements > > or ascribed any > > blame regarding anyone on this list. I suggested that you > > look at these > > beliefs and see if they apply to you. If you have read that > > material, you > > would see where I am coming from, these beliefs are > > endemic, to some extent > > we all endorse one or more of these beliefs. > > > > I am not saying one way or another whether any of these > > beliefs specifically > > apply or not. For me to go further would be a violation of > > professional > > ethics. I can not and will not play psychologist here. I am > > not a licensed > > clinical psychologist. I can discuss my research, political > > opinions etc. > > But for me to attempt a specific analysis of someone > with whom I'm > > interacting with would be highly unethical. > > > > larry > > > > -- > > Larry C. Lyons > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > EBStor.com > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > http://www.pacel.com > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > -- > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:20 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > I'll read all this at lunch but would like to point out one > > > thing that I > > > saw in my cursory scan > > > > > > "I'm quite willing to be that you endorse many of > these irrational > > > beliefs." > > > > > > Now by saying that you are one giant hypocrite. Remember > > > when I accused > > > you of wearing blinders about Clinton. You exploded > > with, You don't > > > know me...you can't stereotype me...yada yada yada. Well that > > > statement > > > you made seems to me you did just the same thing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:12 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > Kevin, > > > > > > First off to the CF-Community - this is a large note, really > > > large. Its > > > partially taken from my master's thesis and some material > > scraped off > > > the > > > web. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:08 AM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: RE: From the OMFG files > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > I suffer from bi-polar depression and no matter how > > depressed I get, > > > > which isn't very often as I have medication for it. But > > > even before I > > > > was diagnosed and took the medication I never felt > the desire > > > > to embrace > > > > irrational beliefs. I just don't buy it, sorry. Just look > > > > at any court > > > > case where any type of mental disability or incapacity is > > > > involved. The > > > > defense has an expert on their side saying that it's a > > > problem and the > > > > prosecution has an expert saying that it's not. When it > > > > comes to matter > > > > of the mind, which "expert" do you believe? In this > > case, with my > > > > personal experience, I don't buy the depression bit. > > > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > I look at the person's publications etc. In other words his > > > professional > > > reputation. I'd rather trust a Aaron Beck of SUNY rather > > than someone > > > with a > > > terminal masters from a no-name bible college. > > > > > > Moreover some definitions are needed, I think that there is a > > > disconnect > > > between what you call irrational beliefs and what I use for > > > the term. To > > > me > > > its a fairly operationally defined type of cognition. > - btw the > > > following > > > is taken from > > > http://www.scs.unt.edu/classes/RHAB/5300/RationalEmotiveBehavi > > > orTherapy. > > > html > > > > > > > > > -- > > > To start, our thinking, emoting and acting all > interact together. > > > Nothing is > > > experienced in isolation. Emotion is said to have no > > single cause or > > > result > > > but can result from the senses, the stimulation of the > > nervous system, > > > thinking about something that has importance or calling up > > > thoughts of a > > > previous emotional experience. > > > > > > If you want to control the emotions, there are four major > > > ways to do so. > > > The > > > first is by electric shock or with drugs. The second > way to change > > > behavior > > > is to utilize another system such as physical movement or > > variation in > > > breathing. Emotional states and prejudices can be seen as > > motives to > > > change. > > > The last way is to use your thinking and exert > control with your > > > thoughts. > > > > > > The roots of maladjustment are Irrational Beliefs (iBs). These > > > irrational > > > beliefs significantly contribute to or "cause" emotional and > > > behavioral > > > disturbances. Dysfunctional, negative, or other > > > self-defeating ideas can > > > cause a person to be neurotic and disturbed. Irrational > > Beliefs (iBs) > > > are > > > beliefs that are unrealistic, illogical, absolutist and held > > > to tightly > > > even > > > when they can't be proven. In contrast, an adjusted person's > > > thinking is > > > logical and realistic most of the time. People who are less > > > neurotic and > > > self-defeating are also those who are flexible and not > > > dogmatic in their > > > thinking. Ellis (1994) hypothesized that emotionally > > disturbed people > > > commonly have a number of iBs and practically all of them > > arise from > > > their > > > taking a sensible preference or desire and raising it to > > a grandiose, > > > absolutist must or demand. Within the REBT framework, > > people who hold > > > the > > > irrational demand that they absolutely must perform well > > at certain > > > tasks > > > and relationships often use poor thinking methods to > confirm these > > > ideas. > > > People truly diagnosed as disturbed or maladjusted > display similar > > > ideas. > > > > > > When an undesirable or unfortunate activating event or > > adversity (A) > > > occurs, > > > two routes can be followed. A person experiencing the > > event can choose > > > to > > > respond and develop a rational belief (rB) which is a > > belief that is > > > self-helping or socially acceptable to the community as a > > > whole. Others > > > may > > > respond to the activating event with (iBs). In both cases, > > > there will be > > > consequences (Cs). A pers! on with (iBs) may develop unhealthy > > > consequences > > > (Cs) such as depression. The opposite is true for the > person who > > > responds > > > with (rBs) they may feel sorrow or regret but the (Cs) > > that result are > > > healthier for the person. > > > > > > The method of enhancing adjustment is to teach a person > > to dispute his > > > iBs > > > and develop an effective new philosophy. Even when the > > > activating event > > > is a > > > fatal illness, REBT techniques can be employed. It is > > unlikely that an > > > individual will be able to think rationally all the > time. Even as > > > children > > > we are open to suggestion and we may easily take on > > destructive ideas > > > from > > > our parents or from our culture. Additionally, we have a > > strong innate > > > tendency to take any strong desire and make it something > > necessary to > > > have. > > > We also have innate and acquired self-defeating tendencies: > > > we take our > > > goals and desires and transform them into demands and > > commands. This > > > tendency is both biological and socially learned. In the > > early days of > > > humanity, this may have been a life-preserving tool. Early > > > humans had to > > > ward off dangerous encounters. Though therapy can't change > > > all the ideas > > > we > > > are exposed to, it can help us think more effectively. > > > -- > > > Generally these beliefs include Black and white thinking > > (absolutism); > > > Filtering; Over-generalisation; Mind-reading; > > > Fortune-telling; Emotional > > > reasoning and Personalising. Here are some typical > > Irrational Beliefs > > > (your > > > milage may vary). > > > > > > -- > > > I need love and approval from those significant to me - and I > > > must avoid > > > disapproval from any source). > > > > > > To be worthwhile as a person I must achieve, succeed at > > whatever I do, > > > and > > > make no mistakes. Perfectionism > > > > > > People should always do the right thing. When they behave > > obnoxiously, > > > unfairly or selfishly, they must be blamed and punished. > > > > > > Things must be the way I want them to be, oth-erwise > life will be > > > intolerable. > > > > > > My unhappiness is caused by things that are out-side my > > control - so > > > there > > > is little I can do to feel any better. > > > > > > I must worry about things that could be danger-ous, > unpleasant or > > > frightening - otherwise they might happen. > > > > > > I can be happier by avoiding life's difficulties, > > unpleasantness, and > > > responsibilities. > > > > > > Everyone needs to depend on someone stronger than themselves. > > > > > > Events in my past are the cause of my problems - and they > > continue to > > > influence my feelings and behaviours now. > > > > > > I should become upset when other people have problems, and > > > feel unhappy > > > when > > > they're sad. > > > > > > I shouldn't have to feel discomfort and pain - I can't > > stand them and > > > must > > > avoid them at all costs. > > > > > > Every problem should have an ideal solution - and it's > > > intolerable when > > > one > > > can't be found. > > > -- > > > > > > Now given that, in the research I've conducted, we have used > > > standardized > > > tests that looked the degree of endorsement of irrational > > beliefs. We > > > found > > > significant relationships between the number and > magnitude of the > > > irrational > > > beliefs and high levels of depression, anxiety, and > > generalized anger > > > among > > > others. Those people with high levels of depression, anxiety, > > > generalized > > > anger etc tended to endorse more of these irrational beliefs > > > that those > > > who > > > were not depressed, anxious etc. These relationships were > > very similar > > > for > > > university student samples, participants from community > > > colleges, office > > > workers, people working in industrial plants, hospitals and > > > residents of > > > senior care homes. These relationships held up across > considerably > > > different > > > samples, which suggests to me that similar relationships > > > would be found > > > if > > > we were able to assess the entire population rather than these > > > independent > > > samples. > > > > > > In terms of a psychotherapy, REBT has been found to be > > very effective, > > > as > > > evidenced by literally hundreds of studies (see Lyons & > > Woods, 1990, > > > online > > > version at > http://www.lyonsmorris.com/maret/RETstudy1.htm). It is also > > been > > found to be effective when combined with psychotropic > medication for > > bipolar > > conditions as well. However I do not have my references here > > at work so > > I'll > > have to get back to you on that one. > > > > Now given that very long winded explanation, I'm quite > willing to be > > that > > you endorse many of these irrational beliefs. However > it would be > > unethical > > of me to explore this further in public. Moreover I let > my training in > > this > > area lapse years ago, so it would not be appropriate to go > > any further. > > What > > I can say is look over those 12 self-statements and > consider how often > > you > > say them, or something similar to yourself. Then look > at how many you > > endorsed, the results may be quite surprising. > > > > regards, > > > > larry > > > > -- > > Larry C. Lyons > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > EBStor.com > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > http://www.pacel.com > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > -- > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
