"You're standing outside a large camp during a war when a troop of heavily armed men come up to you. They are your allies and they want access to the camp. Do you ask them why? Of course you do. They say something that sounds perfectly ok and you let them in. You don't have any orders to keep them out so you don't stop them."
So first responsibility rests on the leader of the Kataeb Party troops. He gave the orders. Second responsibility rests on the troops themselves who carried out the orders. After the direct participants you have the next levels of responsibility - indirect responsibility. First indirect responsibility rests on the guards who let the Kataeb Party troops into the camp. It could be argued that they should be grouped as directly responsible, but they didn't pull the trigger or order it. I doubt they even had the capacity to stop what was happening. After a dozen or so more levels of indirect responsibility you get to Sharon who at the time was the defense minister. That meant he is ultimately responsible for the actions of his troops, even if he didn't order and/or didn't know. His responsibility was for the actions of his troops, not the actions of the Kataeb Party. The aiding and abetting was arms during a war. Other countries did the same so they must also be responsible for what happened. There was no command support, no housing support. Just guns. If the Kataeb Party was stationed in Israel then your Al Queda analogy would work but they were not. The only connection was material support. But let me reverse your responsibility argument. The flotilla left from a Turkish port in Cyprus. They had the support of Turkey. They had bullet proof vests from Turkey. The people involved in beating the soldiers were Turkish. Does this mean that Turkey is responsible for sending the ships? Does it mean that they are also partially (or fully) responsible for the deaths? On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Eric Roberts <[email protected]> wrote: > > Considering that they allowed the Kataeb Party troops to enter the refugee > camps, the IDF may as well have been pulling the trigger. That makes them > responsible. I am sure that wasn't just a local decision. They also did > nothing to stop the massacre...again...more than likely a decision from > above. Israel also supplied them with weapons and transportation into the > camps. He was directly responsible because he aided and abetted a massacre > and should have been brought up on criminal charges. Think of the reason we > are in Afghanistan...because the Taliban aided and abetted Al-Qaeda. The > Taliban didn't fly any planes into any buildings, but they provided material > support and thus were equally as guilty. Same applies here. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:39 PM > To: cf-community > Subject: Re: 5 of the 9 bodies returned to turkey were all headshots. > > >> 1. yes > Give a source. No source that I've read says that the IDF took part in > the massacre. If you have a different source, show it. The Kataeb > Party was not the IDF or under IDF control in any way, shape or form. > >> 2. Doesn't matter...he was in charge > That wasn't the question. Was he present? No. Him being in charge is > handled in #4 > >> 3. Since he was in charge...that would mean that he gave the order unless >> they were just an anarchistic mob... > Chain of command. He sets the policy which is implemented down the > line. If you're claiming he ordered it, show your source. The Kataeb > Party was not in his chain of command nor were any of the other > Lebanese groups. > >> 4. If you think that he didn't give the order as Defense minister then > you >> are just naive as I know you are not stupid. > Same as above. Show your source or it's just an inflammatory statement > with no basis in reality. > >> 6.When Israel does good, then yes. But I see Israel does no wrong in your >> eyes....never. I sure hope you are getting rewarded for making excuses > for >> their criminal actions. > I'll defend Israel against peoples tendency to instantly leap and > accuse but I'll back up what I say with references to avoid just the > label your applying. On the other hand, I've been very critical of the > Israeli government in the past. Even this topic had me saying how > foolish the operation was and how heads will roll for it. > > You want more criticism. The current defense minister will not be > sacked as he's happily carrying out Washington's orders. He'll skate > by and his subordinates will get the brunt of it. As with Sharon, he's > ultimately responsible for the actions of his subordinates and should > be held to the same standards. > > Bottom line is that if you make the type of inflammatory claims that > you do, prepare to back them up. > >> 1. Did the IDF or any Israeli take part in the massacre? No. >> 2. Was Sharon present? No. >> 3. Did Sharon order it? no >> 4. Was he, as the defense minister, ultimately responsible for what >> happens during his tenure, even if he is not directly responsible? >> According to Gruss, Yes. >> 5. Did you actually read about the subject before accusing the IDF of >> carrying out the massacre? No >> 6. Can Israel ever do anything right in your eyes? No >> >> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Eric Roberts >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Was there not a massacre? An Israeli committee determined that? >>> LOL...Sharon could have been raping little girls and they would have said >> he >>> was only indirectly involved. That's a bit like letting the fox guard > the >>> henhouse. Hardly a lie. The only lie is the excuses you make up for >>> Israel's misconduct and criminal act >> >> >> >> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:320302 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/unsubscribe.cfm
