I haven't painted it as rosy at all. I, like you, take issue with all the things you said below. All I have said is it's the best thing going right now.
I answered most of it inline also - Tim -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 2:25 PM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 11:19 AM >> To: CF-Community >> Subject: RE: Is America Evil? Switzerland Ideal? >> >> >> Here's the "British" Idea of freedom. Precautionary arrests. Hehe. >> >> http://www.ds-osac.org/view.cfm?key=7746534A47&type=3D13151D011112 >> >> Tim >> >How is that different from the U.S. "detaining" (imprisoning) hundreds of >U.S. citizens indefinitely with no charges and no recourse to representation >and no chance to even confront those who witness against them? What hundreds are you talking about? I know of one, and I am dead set against doing that to US citizens. Now non-citizens is something totally different. >How is that different from our government prosecuting librarians for telling >people that the government has subpeonead records about them? What prosecutions have taken place? For what charges? Not trying to disagree, just hadn't heard about it and wanted to look into it. >How is that different from the government monitoring attorny/client >conversations and using that against them? I am kind of torn about this. The way I understood this part of the law was the it could not be used against the person, but could be used to prevent further acts. As long as the conversation was inadmissible in court than I am ok with it. >How is that different from the Patriot Act allowing the government to search >and seize without probable cause if the investigation is under the label of >terrorism? I think that's awful. I know it's true. >How about wiretaps with no warrant if it's labeled a terror investigation? There are still safeguards in place, several have already been voided by lawsuits, and as soon as Americans start to be tried with some of the results of these I am sure you will start seeing the laws being overturned in the supreme court. >And then there's the grey area of monitoring "public" conversations and >gatherings, even those on private networks, in an effort to stifle >discourse. On private (LAN) networks it's a no go. On the internet, I will be honest I never consider myself to be alone or not under watch. I mean how can we who know about this technology actually have a reasonable expectation of privacy on an open network. Just like walking on the street, no expectation of privacy. >And if we want to stray away from the post-9/11 changes, we can look at >other erosions of civil rights, such as the 4th Amendment not applying to >your car. I have always thought that was wrong. >Or how about local laws, like the ones we have here that let the police lock >people up without a formal arrest or charges, just for standing on the >sidewalk? They call them "loitering laws" here and I know they were modeled >after laws in many other communities. I expected these to get smacked down >immediately by the ACLU, but they've stood for several years now. Depends on the specific law. Some are really bad (NYs is, but it's not often enforced) >Or, since you place such a weight on the right to bear arms, how about local >ordinances that prevent such ownership? They claim it's because of proximity >to schools or public places, but it's just a way to ban guns. Heck, most >cities have laws against carrying a pocket knife. You should know how I feel about this one, I think almost all gun law should be overturned. Still the best of most other countries. >Freedom of speech? That's a laugh in a country that created the DMCA. So far >the government hasn't used it to prevent political speech, but it's been >used to squash plenty of people in other venues. Granted that DMCA is bad, but when compared with some of the draconian laws in regards to a public press that many other nations have it's nothing. >I agree with you that the U.S. isn't all bad and evil, but it sure as hell >isn't as rosy as the picture you're painting in your comments either. I wasn't trying to make it look all good, just trying to show that it's not as bad as people make it seem, and show that for all of it's faults it is still in my opinion the best thing going. -Kevin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
