Double inline -----Original Message----- From: Dana Tierney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:02 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Re: Bush decided to "take out Saddam" in March
Answers inline, that's what you get for writing such a long post :) >Children get killed here every day. Why aren't people in the streets >protesting the bastards that do that? maybe because nobody is trying to tell them what a good thing it is? ME> Who is saying that the deaths of children in Iraq is a ood thing? I haven't seen that anywhere. >Why isn't anyone protesting the cowards that walk into Israeli movie >theaters, bus stops and SCHOOLS to blow up children. maybe because our government isnt one of the causes of that? ME> But we're talking about "the children" >Shit I promise you more children died because of Saddam and >his policies than are going to die in this war. maybe, but even there, we subsidized that ME> Subsidized? We gave him just enough to survive and not enough to prosper. Sometimes the known evil can fell more comfortable than the unknown one. I know this isn't a good argument. We have done wrong many times in the past. Much of my point revolves around the fact that we need to do things differently. We need to use on e set of rules for everyone. ---snip--- >This isn't just Iraq, and I really don't think it will end in Iraq. Now you are really scaring me ME> There are many people who see how this could expand. Hell look at relations with Russia right now. It's getting damned tense. Lets not forget N Korea. >It's an ideal, a belief in the sanctity and the value of human life. In liberty. War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Arbeit macht frei. >I am willing to give up my life, and to take others lives, in order to >forward the cause of liberty for my children, and for you children, and >for Egypt's children and Iraq's children. Really. How are you doing that? ME> I am still an infantryman in the national guard. I have not been called to active duty yet but we have been told that we will be within the next year. I have spent time in uniform in both the middle east and eastern Europe. >Dana, when is it enough to fight for? We live in a new age. The world >isn't as large as it once was. Not that we are running out of space, just >that we are all closer through video, TV and the internet. I understand all the words in those sentences but together they don't seem to add up to a point. Good rhetoric though. ME> The point being that you whine about "the children" and then want to ignore other children that are dying and being killed and enslaved and raped and oppressed. >How much longer will we be able to, in good conscience, turn our backs on >the world. When did we ever? We invade a new country, right or wrong, every five years or so. In effect we are expanding the Monroe Doctrine from the western hemisphere to the entire planet. Assuming current policy is not entire disgenuous. >To allow all of the petty dictators and junior Dr. Evils of the world run >around and do what they want. How many children will we have to let the >next Pol Pot get? How long will we turn a blind eye to the atrocities in >China, Iran, Libya, South America? Is that who is next? Personally, I am not a big fan of destroying the village in order to save it. ME> Who said that China is in our village. >We cannot personally rebuild all of these places. We cannot occupy them >all and make them do what we want. You sound sorry.... ME> I am sorry. I wish we could all get along. I wish we could all agree. >The only recourse we have is to kill the bad ones. I think it's a rather >simple doctrine. Don't do evil. You think we don't ever do evil? What about judge not lest ye be judged, hmmm? ME> I know we do evil, it's one of the reasons I think we need such drastic reforms in this country. As for judging, well I am a fan of Rand, and whose intellect, whose judgment should I trust over my own? >The golden rule with a twist, do unto others, or we'll do unto you. Wiccan >say "Do as you will so long as you harm none". I would change that to say >something like "Harm none lest ye be harmed". War is terrorism with a big budget. ME> War targets military and political infrastructure. It does not target civilians. We do not bomb movie theaters or shoot down passenger planes on purpose. I know these accidents happen, but they are just that, accidents. >See the idea of the laws of three get left out of the basic wiccan ideal. >That whatever you do will be brought back against you three fold. I am not >saying it's what I believe. My wife is into that stuff not me. I just >think is a good idea when looked at in the correct light. An eye for an eye, that kind of thing? I might even agree with that if I trusted the people making the judgements. My unease with this war fundamentally stems from the conviction that the American people is being lied to. ME> I can understand that. I don't like this administration. They have said things to try and sway opinion that aren't true. They have pushed through laws that reduce your civil liberties. However I still say this is a just war. The reasons that the administration wants to do it just aren't necessarily the same ones I have. >We have the opportunity to create an amazing world. With our big guns? ME> Do you know of another way? > Its going to be hard, it's going to cost money, blood and lives. We >cannot sacrifice individual liberty in the way we are now in doing so. I am not sure what you mean by this. Personal liberty is a bad thing? Or it's a good thing and it's being sacrificed? If so, how? ME> Personal liberty is a very good ting. It's being sacrificed in new ways daily, with new laws (Patriot 1 and 2 new search and seizure guidelines). We need to ensure that our federal government has the limits its intended to have. > I am tired of hearing apologists, and those who would compromise. Can the >rat compromise with the snake? Ideologies can be looked at like that. Some >are just incompatible. I suppose this is fair enough as far as it goes. If the truth is being told and those are in fact the facts. Maybe. >We are killing children in Iraq. This is a fact. We have killed children >all over the world. This is not a nice thing, a pretty thing. It is a side >effect of war. And all the more reason to avoid it if it isnt necessary. I believe the motives of our leaders are much more murky than they way they are being portrayed. ME> Simply because the motivations put forward by our leaders are not what they seem, or what we think is the truth, this does not mean that the war itself isn't just. Honestly, can you deny that their are good reasons to do this? Then who really cares why GWB wants to do it? > Diplomacy must have it's day, I am not saying do away with it, but it >also must eventually be put aside and the work of creation, directed >violence, must begin. This is the truth of human existence. The >dichotomy of love and hate. Peace through war. Wealth through poverty. Man and I thought maybe I was overdoing it quoting Big Brother. DO you really believe that stuff?? ME> Yes I do. When has a weak state been secure in human history? Never. Where is wealth created? In the board room? In a jet? No it's created in the dirt, and on the floor of a factory. It is created in the mind of the able. Wealth is created through poverty of one sort or another. >Can you look at this world objectively? Without the tug of the heart >strings? Can you see 20, 30 or 100 years from now? Yeah. The I see the future and the future is carrying signs saying "I hate American Intervention". Why can't we leave those people alone? It would cost the wrong people money is why :) ME> Because they came here and killed 3000 of us. Because they tried to kill a former American president. Because they send money to the families of suicide bombers. Because someone must, and we can. > I try, and without a major war, a cultural shift, I don't like what I >see. I see an America in decline. I see third world countries taking over. And? Let them play policeman a while and see how they like it :) Seriously, a strong America and an insecure America are mutually incompatible. ME> you would rather let the junior Dr. Evils play cop? Think about what kind of cops they breed. The kind that likes to put cigarettes out in your gentitalia. The kind that buries bodies in shallow unmarked graves. The kind that knows know limit. >Rather than our lifting countries to our level, we are dragged in to their >quagmire. Really. I don't think they have that power, personally. So which of us really believes in America, hmm? ME> I think that no matter how powerful we are, we can become overwhelmed. I think we need to make a change, and before that a decision. Either we are going to be engaged internationally, fully engaged. Where we are going to project our moral and political views, or we need to sit back and say, the rest of the world is not our problem. And if we decide to pull back, then we need to do it all the way. Bring all of our troops home, move to a totally defensive posture, and stop sending money and arms and support all over the world. I don't think this is something we can do half way. Tim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
