Dana,
Thanks for the great debate and I understand that neither of us are
going to move much on this one. A few things in confirmation.
You can see some pics of me from my active duty days at
www.terminal-fusion.com/heald1.jpg and www.terminal-fusion.com/heald2.jpg.
Those pics are taken while I was deployed to the middle east with the 82nd
Airborne division. While I was over there I also did the site
www.82nd.20m.com (my 1st SGT chose the colors and everything, that's why
it's so ugly). I am currently in the 29th Infantry Division (light) of the
Virginia National Guard. I am shortly transferring to the Maryland National
Guards E co 629th MI (Military Intelligence) so I can be in the division's
Long Range Surveillance Detachment and get back on jump status. If you go
to www.military.com and go to resources you will see a section that says
"Trying to find an old friend?" You can use that engine to pull up basic
information from a former or current service members personnel jacket. You
will see form my entry that I am an 11b1p. That means Airborne Infantryman.
Sorry if I tended to go on about that. I have come across a great
number of fake paratroopers, rangers and special forces people on the
internet. People I know through places like www.paratrooper.net have
started a campaign to catch and prosecute as many of these fakes as
possible, as it is a crime inside the US to misrepresent your military
record.
Onto your comments. I cannot for a second believe that you are
comparing the so called suicide bombers to actual soldiers. There is no way
I can accept that someone who cares about people as much as you seem to
would not be able to see the very obvious difference. What the terrorists
in Palestine, Israel, and Now in Iraq (several troops killed the other day
by a suicide bomber in Iraq) do is not considered war fighting by any
stretch of the imagination. Ok maybe in the case in Iraq. That was a
military target. The Pentagon was a military target. A movie theater is
not, nor a bus nor a school. I am sorry but I think your trying to compare
apples and oranges there.
Pres Bush SR. was the president that Saddam tried to have killed.
He sent out teams to try to accomplish this during a visit the Pres. made
back in the 90's after leaving office. Google it. It's real, it's proven.
I just don't have the time to provide that right now.
Links between Iraq and UBL are tenuous at best, I understand that.
I am also not trying to say that Saddam had anything directly to do wit what
occurred on 9-11. I am saying that the culture, religion and ideology that
allows and even suggests such behavior is our enemy. No single Muslim
country in the middle east or Asia is exempt. There is a dichotomy that
exists there. I am not sure how we get around, but it's their none the
less.
I know I haven't changed your mind, and I like the fact that you can
stick to your guns. I hope you don't doubt my sincerity about my military
experience anymore.
Have a good one.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Tierney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 2:20 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: Bush decided to "take out Saddam" in March
I don't think we are going to agree on this one. You are not convincing me
on the war, and I don't think it is possible to convince you. Still, a
couple of answers.
-snip-
> H>Children get killed here every day. Why aren't people in the streets
> >protesting the bastards that do that?
>
D> maybe because nobody is trying to tell them what a good thing it is?
>
> H> Who is saying that the deaths of children in Iraq is a ood thing? I
> haven't seen that anywhere.
D: you said yourself in your original post that if kids get killed oh well,
that's war :) and ::shrug:: this war is being portrayed as a good
thing....some sort of moral crusade.
> H>Why isn't anyone protesting the cowards that walk into Israeli movie
> >theaters, bus stops and SCHOOLS to blow up children.
>
D> maybe because our government isnt one of the causes of that?
>
> H> But we're talking about "the children"
D:Are we? I merely said that the kids that are dying over there are mega
bad PR. Do you think otherwise?
--snip--
H> Sometimes the known evil can fell more comfortable than the
> unknown one. I know this isn't a good argument. We have done wrong many
> times in the past. Much of my point revolves around the fact that we need
> to do things differently. We need to use on e set of rules for everyone.
yeah
--snip--
> H>I am willing to give up my life, and to take others lives, in order to
> >forward the cause of liberty for my children, and for you children, and
> >for Egypt's children and Iraq's children.
>
D> Really. How are you doing that?
>
> H> I am still an infantryman in the national guard. I have not been
> called to active duty yet but we have been told that we will be within the
> next year. I have spent time in uniform in both the middle east and
eastern
> Europe.
D: OK. If that is true then I apologize for scoffing here. It still seems
like a waste of lives to me though. If you are willing to get your own
hands dirty however then my respect for your position increases -- but I
still think you are being used.
> H>Dana, when is it enough to fight for? We live in a new age. The world
> >isn't as large as it once was. Not that we are running out of space, just
> >that we are all closer through video, TV and the internet.
>
D> I understand all the words in those sentences but together they don't
seem
> to add up to a point. Good rhetoric though.
>
> H> The point being that you whine about "the children" and then want to
> ignore other children that are dying and being killed and enslaved and
raped
> and oppressed.
D: You know, if you perceive this discussion as whining then we don't have
to pursue it. I have stated my point quite clearly, that regardless of
actual intent the children who are dying over there will be used against us
and probably are already. If you don't get it I am sorry, but it's a little
different than getting the vapors over Bambi......
and YOU still dont have a point. What does the internet have to do with
invading Iraq????
--snip --
D> Is that who is next? Personally, I am not a big fan of destroying the
> village in order to save it.
>
> H> Who said that China is in our village.
D: uh, you ever hear of My Lai? weren't you the one talking about China?
Who said anything about "our" village?
> H>We cannot personally rebuild all of these places. We cannot occupy them
> >all and make them do what we want.
>
D> You sound sorry....
>
> H> I am sorry. I wish we could all get along. I wish we could all agree.
D: dang and all that's needed is for them to do what we want......wonder
what they are waiting for, huh?
--snip--
> H> I know we do evil, it's one of the reasons I think we need such
drastic
> reforms in this country.
D: I agree with this... though I have a feeling that we won't agree if we
go into which reforms.
H> As for judging, well I am a fan of Rand, and whose
> intellect, whose judgment should I trust over my own?
D: I am not going to get started on Ayn Rand. Period.
---snip---
> H> War targets military and political infrastructure. It does not target
> civilians. We do not bomb movie theaters or shoot down passenger planes
on
> purpose. I know these accidents happen, but they are just that,
accidents.
D: Again, it doesnt matter how good our intentions are.
--snip--
> H> I can understand that. I don't like this administration. They have
> said things to try and sway opinion that aren't true. They have pushed
> through laws that reduce your civil liberties. However I still say this
is
> a just war. The reasons that the administration wants to do it just
aren't
> necessarily the same ones I have.
D: I dont know if you can have a just war led by corrupt leaders. I don't
think so, no matter how pure your ideals may be. Sorry. I am not being
sarcastic when I say sorry, either.
> H>We have the opportunity to create an amazing world.
>
D> With our big guns?
>
> H> Do you know of another way?
D: maybe if we don't know another way we should learn one....
-snip-
> H> Personal liberty is a very good ting. It's being sacrificed in new
> ways daily, with new laws (Patriot 1 and 2 new search and seizure
> guidelines). We need to ensure that our federal government has the limits
> its intended to have.
D: I am glad we dont have to argue this point too. I was afraid you would
think it was all a worthwhile sacrifice in the name of defeating terrorism
or something
--snip--
> H> Simply because the motivations put forward by our leaders are not what
> they seem, or what we think is the truth, this does not mean that the war
> itself isn't just. Honestly, can you deny that their are good reasons to
do
> this? Then who really cares why GWB wants to do it?
D: I am unconvinced that there are good reasons to do this and every
succeeding reason du jour makes me wonder a little more. Now we aren't
looking for wmd any more, we are building democracy. Right... this from a
guy who arguably isnt even an elected official...
--snip--
H> Where is wealth created? In the board room? In a jet? No it's created
in
> the dirt, and on the floor of a factory. It is created in the mind of the
> able. Wealth is created through poverty of one sort or another.
D: hehe you have never been poor, have you :)
-snip---
> H> Because they came here and killed 3000 of us.
D: Saddam did? Links please.
H: Because they tried to
> kill a former American president.
D: Que? Reagan? Who?
H> Because they send money to the families
> of suicide bombers. Because someone must, and we can.
D: Oh boy. We give benefits to soldiers' families right? What about the
9-11 fund? I kinda wonder if you have ever lived outside the US, except in
the military? These people think they are justified, because we do the kind
of thing we just did by invading. Rather than preventing another 9-11 (why
arent we invading the Saudis if its about 9-11?) we are furthering a
destructive spiral by perpetuating this image of ourselves as power and
oil-hungry.
-snip--
> H> you would rather let the junior Dr. Evils play cop? Think about what
> kind of cops they breed. The kind that likes to put cigarettes out in
your
> gentitalia. The kind that buries bodies in shallow unmarked graves. The
> kind that knows know limit.
D: you would have a point if so many of those cops had not been trained by
us...
--snip--
> H> I think that no matter how powerful we are, we can become overwhelmed.
> I think we need to make a change, and before that a decision. Either we
are
> going to be engaged internationally, fully engaged. Where we are going to
> project our moral and political views, or we need to sit back and say, the
> rest of the world is not our problem. And if we decide to pull back, then
we
> need to do it all the way. Bring all of our troops home, move to a
totally
> defensive posture, and stop sending money and arms and support all over
the
> world.
D: Unfortunately even when well-intentioned, which I don't think this one
is, our interventions abroad generally break down on our naivete and lack
of understanding of local conditions. Personally I would continue food aid,
possibly help with infrastructure, but stay strictly out of regime change
and military stuff unless and until something like Hitler came along. You
can say (and some do I know) that Saddam is Hitler because he gassed people
ten years ago or was it twelve but we didnt do anything about it then, why
start now? Particularly as it is unlikely to work as intended...
H> I don't think this is something we can do half way.
D: I am unconvinced that this is something we should do at all. I may not
be anti-war but I am certainly not in favor....
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