I agree that iraq will not be the end he might go try to pick a fight with North Korea or another country just to be at war around the election to bolster his chances of reelection.
lol ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Tierney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Bush decided to "take out Saddam" in March again this deserves a thoughtful answer and I will be gone all day. Sorry. Will try to get to this tonight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Double inline > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dana Tierney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:02 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Bush decided to "take out Saddam" in March > > > Answers inline, that's what you get for writing such a long post :) > > >Children get killed here every day. Why aren't people in the streets > >protesting the bastards that do that? > > maybe because nobody is trying to tell them what a good thing it is? > > ME> Who is saying that the deaths of children in Iraq is a ood thing? I > haven't seen that anywhere. > > >Why isn't anyone protesting the cowards that walk into Israeli movie > >theaters, bus stops and SCHOOLS to blow up children. > > maybe because our government isnt one of the causes of that? > > ME> But we're talking about "the children" > > >Shit I promise you more children died because of Saddam and > >his policies than are going to die in this war. > > maybe, but even there, we subsidized that > > ME> Subsidized? We gave him just enough to survive and not enough to > prosper. Sometimes the known evil can fell more comfortable than the > unknown one. I know this isn't a good argument. We have done wrong many > times in the past. Much of my point revolves around the fact that we need > to do things differently. We need to use on e set of rules for everyone. > > ---snip--- > > >This isn't just Iraq, and I really don't think it will end in Iraq. > > Now you are really scaring me > > ME> There are many people who see how this could expand. Hell look at > relations with Russia right now. It's getting damned tense. Lets not > forget N Korea. > > >It's an ideal, a belief in the sanctity and the value of human life. In > liberty. > > War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Arbeit macht frei. > > >I am willing to give up my life, and to take others lives, in order to > >forward the cause of liberty for my children, and for you children, and > >for Egypt's children and Iraq's children. > > Really. How are you doing that? > > ME> I am still an infantryman in the national guard. I have not been > called to active duty yet but we have been told that we will be within the > next year. I have spent time in uniform in both the middle east and eastern > Europe. > > >Dana, when is it enough to fight for? We live in a new age. The world > >isn't as large as it once was. Not that we are running out of space, just > >that we are all closer through video, TV and the internet. > > I understand all the words in those sentences but together they don't seem > to add up to a point. Good rhetoric though. > > ME> The point being that you whine about "the children" and then want to > ignore other children that are dying and being killed and enslaved and raped > and oppressed. > > >How much longer will we be able to, in good conscience, turn our backs on > >the world. > > When did we ever? We invade a new country, right or wrong, every five years > or so. In effect we are expanding the Monroe Doctrine from the western > hemisphere to the entire planet. Assuming current policy is not entire > disgenuous. > > >To allow all of the petty dictators and junior Dr. Evils of the world run > >around and do what they want. How many children will we have to let the > >next Pol Pot get? How long will we turn a blind eye to the atrocities in > >China, Iran, Libya, South America? > > Is that who is next? Personally, I am not a big fan of destroying the > village in order to save it. > > ME> Who said that China is in our village. > > >We cannot personally rebuild all of these places. We cannot occupy them > >all and make them do what we want. > > You sound sorry.... > > ME> I am sorry. I wish we could all get along. I wish we could all agree. > > >The only recourse we have is to kill the bad ones. I think it's a rather > >simple doctrine. Don't do evil. > > You think we don't ever do evil? What about judge not lest ye be judged, > hmmm? > > ME> I know we do evil, it's one of the reasons I think we need such drastic > reforms in this country. As for judging, well I am a fan of Rand, and whose > intellect, whose judgment should I trust over my own? > > >The golden rule with a twist, do unto others, or we'll do unto you. Wiccan > >say "Do as you will so long as you harm none". I would change that to say > >something like "Harm none lest ye be harmed". > > War is terrorism with a big budget. > > ME> War targets military and political infrastructure. It does not target > civilians. We do not bomb movie theaters or shoot down passenger planes on > purpose. I know these accidents happen, but they are just that, accidents. > > >See the idea of the laws of three get left out of the basic wiccan ideal. > >That whatever you do will be brought back against you three fold. I am not > >saying it's what I believe. My wife is into that stuff not me. I just > >think is a good idea when looked at in the correct light. > > An eye for an eye, that kind of thing? I might even agree with that if I > trusted the people making the judgements. My unease with this war > fundamentally stems from the conviction that the American people is being > lied to. > > ME> I can understand that. I don't like this administration. They have > said things to try and sway opinion that aren't true. They have pushed > through laws that reduce your civil liberties. However I still say this is > a just war. The reasons that the administration wants to do it just aren't > necessarily the same ones I have. > > >We have the opportunity to create an amazing world. > > With our big guns? > > ME> Do you know of another way? > > > Its going to be hard, it's going to cost money, blood and lives. We > >cannot sacrifice individual liberty in the way we are now in doing so. > > I am not sure what you mean by this. Personal liberty is a bad thing? Or > it's a good thing and it's being sacrificed? If so, how? > > ME> Personal liberty is a very good ting. It's being sacrificed in new > ways daily, with new laws (Patriot 1 and 2 new search and seizure > guidelines). We need to ensure that our federal government has the limits > its intended to have. > > > I am tired of hearing apologists, and those who would compromise. Can the > >rat compromise with the snake? Ideologies can be looked at like that. Some > >are just incompatible. > > I suppose this is fair enough as far as it goes. If the truth is being told > and those are in fact the facts. Maybe. > > >We are killing children in Iraq. This is a fact. We have killed children > >all over the world. This is not a nice thing, a pretty thing. It is a side > >effect of war. > > And all the more reason to avoid it if it isnt necessary. I believe the > motives of our leaders are much more murky than they way they are being > portrayed. > > ME> Simply because the motivations put forward by our leaders are not what > they seem, or what we think is the truth, this does not mean that the war > itself isn't just. Honestly, can you deny that their are good reasons to do > this? Then who really cares why GWB wants to do it? > > > Diplomacy must have it's day, I am not saying do away with it, but it > >also must eventually be put aside and the work of creation, directed > >violence, must begin. This is the truth of human existence. The > >dichotomy of love and hate. Peace through war. Wealth through poverty. > > Man and I thought maybe I was overdoing it quoting Big Brother. DO you > really believe that stuff?? > > ME> Yes I do. When has a weak state been secure in human history? Never. > Where is wealth created? In the board room? In a jet? No it's created in > the dirt, and on the floor of a factory. It is created in the mind of the > able. Wealth is created through poverty of one sort or another. > > >Can you look at this world objectively? Without the tug of the heart > >strings? Can you see 20, 30 or 100 years from now? > > Yeah. The I see the future and the future is carrying signs saying "I hate > American Intervention". Why can't we leave those people alone? It would > cost the wrong people money is why :) > > ME> Because they came here and killed 3000 of us. Because they tried to > kill a former American president. Because they send money to the families > of suicide bombers. Because someone must, and we can. > > > I try, and without a major war, a cultural shift, I don't like what I > >see. I see an America in decline. I see third world countries taking over. > > And? Let them play policeman a while and see how they like it :) Seriously, > a strong America and an insecure America are mutually incompatible. > > ME> you would rather let the junior Dr. Evils play cop? Think about what > kind of cops they breed. The kind that likes to put cigarettes out in your > gentitalia. The kind that buries bodies in shallow unmarked graves. The > kind that knows know limit. > > >Rather than our lifting countries to our level, we are dragged in to their > >quagmire. > > Really. I don't think they have that power, personally. So which of us > really believes in America, hmm? > > ME> I think that no matter how powerful we are, we can become overwhelmed. > I think we need to make a change, and before that a decision. Either we are > going to be engaged internationally, fully engaged. Where we are going to > project our moral and political views, or we need to sit back and say, the > rest of the world is not our problem. And if we decide to pull back, then we > need to do it all the way. Bring all of our troops home, move to a totally > defensive posture, and stop sending money and arms and support all over the > world. > > I don't think this is something we can do half way. > > Tim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
