or the other. I'm just grasping for some way out of the mess. But we agree
that it's up to the people of Iraq to make the change. The best we can do is
give them the opportunity.
-Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Ousterhout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: Should we stay or should we go (Was RE: OMG FUNNY MOVIE!!)
> Kevin,
>
> Right now, we will NOT get any outside assistance until more progress is
made
> and it becomes clear that we will "win". Other countries are desperately
> hoping for our failure in order to make us more cooperative in the future.
I
> also don't believe that more targets will help.
>
> I think the only way that we can leave Iraq in a better position then when
we
> entered (my definition of winning which unfortunately leaves the
definition of
> better up in the air...) is not by bringing in more outsiders, but by
getting
> the Iraqi's to step up to the plate and stop being victims. And I believe
> this is why Rummy and Co are not recommending more troops. We can only
win
> the the Iraqi's say enough is enough and take responsibility for stopping
the
> violence. Unfortunately, that means that enough violence has to occur to
get
> them to say "Enough. It is our problem. I will stop it". Only then will
the
> violence stop and will they be able to define what form of government they
> want.
>
> I believe in 4 because I believe that other Arab governments are using
hatred
> of Israel to keep focus off of their own abuse of their people. If we
create
> a situation that focuses people back on that they are the cause of their
own
> problems, not someone else, then and only then will we have a situation
that
> peace can actually occur.
>
> Andy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 9:01 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Should we stay or should we go (Was RE: OMG FUNNY MOVIE!!)
>
>
> I agree that we have to stay. I'm on the opposite side as far as whether
it
> was right to go in, but I firmly agree with both 1 and 2 of your points.
>
> As for 3, the democracy, I don't know if that can be forced on a people.
We
> have this conceit that everyone wants a democracy (or a republic, Tim
:-) ),
> but I think it's a pretty significant mental shift compared to
historically
> how most cultures have operated.
>
> And for 4, I can't really even comment. I don't know what "success"
means to
> you. There is the rhetoric of peace, but the true peace of accepting
others,
> not de facto peace through homogeny created by killing the other, is not
> something that our military can acheive. The best we can possibly hope
for
> is that the military action might create a window of opportunity for the
> mental shift to happen. But the application of force does not engender
> thoughts of peace. It engenders thoughts of counter-force.
>
> Honestly, I don't see how we can win this war alone. If we pull out, we
> lose. If we stay, we engender more anger and retaliation and we
eventually
> lose. Creating a multinational effort may help to diffuse the target of
> anger enough. But really, the only way I can see "winning" is if the
people
> that we are fighting for determine to stand up for themselves. And then
it's
> not us winning the war, it's them winning it for themselves.
>
> -Kevin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Ousterhout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:38 AM
> Subject: Should we stay or should we go (Was RE: OMG FUNNY MOVIE!!)
>
> > We've been through that many times and not one of us has reversed
> positions as
> > far as I can tell.
> >
> > A subject we haven't covered is should we let the reality of a few US
dead
> > every day effect how long we stay in Iraq now that we are there. Also
> > interesting would be correlating responses to views of whether we
should
> be
> > there in the first place.d
> >
> > So here is my view (coming from the perspective that we needed to be
where
> we
> > are, although I would have been more patient):
> > Now that we are there, we can not afford to leave for several
reasons:
> > 1. We would leave the Iraqi arguably worse off in the short run
then
> they
> > were (worse infrastructure, economy, safety/security vs.. better
control,
> > freedom ....)
> > 2. We would prove that anyone who can kill a few of us can make us
run
> > 3. A revitalized Iraq with their form of democracy would strongly,
> > positively impact this tinderbox of a region
> > 4. I believe that success in Afghanistan, Iraq and creating a
lasting
> > Mid-east peace are linked
> >
> > Andy
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Smyth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:19 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: RE: OMG FUNNY MOVIE!!
> >
> >
> > should never have gone to war in the first place though Tim
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Heald, Tim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 29 October 2003 14:15
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: RE: OMG FUNNY MOVIE!!
> >
> > Good movie.
> >
> > Your logic sucks though. A rise in attacks, especially as they are
> focusing
> > even more on attacking Iraqis that work with the US, can definitely
> indicate
> > that they are worried about how well we are doing.
> >
> > Timothy
> >
> > The opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect those of the
U.S.
> > Department of State or any affiliated organization(s). Nor have
these
> > opinions been approved or sanctioned by these organizations. This
> is
> > unclassified based on the definitions in E.O. 12958.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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