> misleading, and simply takes things to an extreme.
No it's not.
"In other words if the kid crossed the line, he may or may not get beaten
was very often was
associated with later criminal behavior."
> Moreover there is a pattern - those who physically abuse their kids
> generally were abused as children. When I worked with abused teens, I saw
it
> in almost all the cases I worked on - the abuser almost invariably
reported
> being beaten by their parents.
Spanking a child as a form of discipline is not abusing them. Coming home
drunk punching your child is. Even in school the principle or coach gave
swats for bad behavior.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyons, Larry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 9:12 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: TOUGH LOVE vs SPANKING
Just reporting on what the scientific research shows. The act of punishment
is a self-reinforcing behavior. If you use it you're more likely to use it
again given the same environmental cues.
Moreover there is a pattern - those who physically abuse their kids
generally were abused as children. When I worked with abused teens, I saw it
in almost all the cases I worked on - the abuser almost invariably reported
being beaten by their parents.
The data in the scientific literature is very consistent about this, going
back to the Glueck longitudinal studies of juvenile delinquents back in the
30's and 40's. Consistent, love based non-physical discipline works best.
The strongest predictor of later criminal behavior according to the
literature is inconsistently applied physical punishment. In other words if
the kid crossed the line, he may or may not get beaten was very often was
associated with later criminal behavior.
Consider this, take 3 puppies. Raise one with love and non-physical
discipline. You'll most likely end up with an excellent house pet. Beat the
crap out of the second each and every time it needs to be disciplined.
You're likely to end up with a good guard dog, but don't let that animal
near kids. Now for the third dog, each time is needs discipline, you may or
may not beat the crap out of it, but make sure there's no predictability
about it. You will end up with something that may or may not lash out for
whatever reason. That animal will be quite dangerous.
I never said that don't spank, but be very careful and be aware of what its
doing to you when you do decide to spank that little miscreant. As far as I
can see it should be a last resort. If you don't normally use physical
punishment and you swat the kid, that is much more of an eye-opener for the
kid than regularly hitting him or her.
There are also other, frequently more effective methods than hitting the
kid. Timeouts, withdrawal of privileges or treasured items etc, all are very
effective alternatives. Applied consistently and with making sure the kid
understands the reasoning why he's getting punished, is extremely effective
in the long and short run.
Additionally the argument you use regarding the stealing of car stereos is
misleading, and simply takes things to an extreme.
larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cfhelp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:59 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: TOUGH LOVE vs SPANKING
>
>
> > However all too often punishment only serves to reward the person
> > doing
> the
> > punishment.
>
> Grounding your children also grounds the parent.
> Spanking you children hurts the parent both emotionally and
> physically. Taking things away only increases the amount of
> time the parent has to deal with a nagging child. Talking
> with you child is always good but not always an adequate form
> of punishment.
>
> So what happens when the child doesn't start behaving after a
> talk? Do we get a psychiatrist?
>
> I don't think we should beet the Sh__ out of our children,
> but older generation turned out ok and their punishment was
> scheduled events in the Wood Shed. You don't see many of them
> running around waiving guns at each other.
>
> I think it went wrong when some psychologist said you
> shouldn't spank you child, try "tough love". So now the child
> has nothing bad to associate with bad behavior.
>
> Let's go steal stereos tonight. What's the worst that could
> happen, a drive through the park?
>
> Rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lyons, Larry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:15 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: TOUGH LOVE vs SPANKING
>
> The photo is also very blank.
>
> The problem with physical punishment is that it reinforces
> the punishing behavior by the person spanking the kid. Given
> classic reinforcement theory then, you're more likely to
> physically punish the kid again.
>
> This isn't to say that spanking should not be used, but you
> should be very careful about using it. Speaking like former
> psychologist here. When I've done behavioral analyses on
> similar situations, I've found that if done right punishment
> usually serves to disrupt the behavior long enough for
> learning to take place, theoretically. Then you can set
> things up to allow for more acceptable competing behaviors to
> be reinforced.
>
> However all too often punishment only serves to reward the
> person doing the punishment.
>
> But what you're doing is probably as effective in most situations.
>
> larry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andy Ousterhout [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:06 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: TOUGH LOVE vs SPANKING
> >
> >
> > Much has been said about "tough love" for misbehaving children.
> >
> > Most of America's populace thinks it very improper to spank
> > children, so my spouse and I have tried other methods to
> > control our kids when they have one of "those moments".
> >
> > One that we found very effective is for me just take the
> > child for a car ride and talk.
> >
> > They usually calm down and stop misbehaving after our little
> > car ride together.
> >
> > I've included the photo below of one of my sessions, with our
> > son, in case you would like to use the technique.
> >
> > Its very effective .
> >
> > Scroll down to see
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> _____
>
>
>
>
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