On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Paul Hastings wrote: > > On 1/31/2011 11:02 AM, denstar wrote: >> It was based on a percent. So I guess the real number would be 170 >> out of a 1000. I think. 17%? I suck at math. > > you said 17 out of 100 people who replied to that survey. that's a useless > sample size.
Yeah, but I worded it more to sound statistical-ish. Either way... freaking statistics, neh? Brian has a point about the survey, too. >> Still relatively useless, I reckon. It's all about perspective (or > > 1000 is a bit better but still tiny compared to the community. My overall point was that surely there's *some* non-zero number of people trying/using coldfusion that wouldn't before, if not just because of the fact that it was a closed architecture. >> If the number had been 0, perhaps. > > no, a sample of 1 is still not really worth mentioning besides the fact that > it > really can't be the only reason for the swap. Why not? Surely money is a factor most places? If you gotta choose between paying a coder, and paying a license... well I guess that sucks, and it should never be like that in Software Land, but hell, it happens. I'd rather have the coder. Even if CFML gives one coder the strength of ten. =) >> once again be the engine powering said crap. If I switch to PHP, >> there is, IMHO, markedly less of a chance for Adobe to ever be the >> engine powering my crap. > > perhaps but it's hard to say exactly why a shop would swap technologies. > sometimes its a stupid a reason as what some clown wrote in one of those > "tech" > rags like sys-con. It can be all kinds of stuff. I see hiring CF coders come up quite often, but it's easy as snot to train folks. People like the stuff they like though, be it just cuz they like it, or they read about it in a blog or magazine or some such. Having open source engine alternatives is more ammo for folks fighting for CFML use, hands down. How someone could see this as bad for the language, or us, as coders in said language, is beyond me. >> And let us not forget that a lot of pointy-headed-bosses *love* big > > yes that's true but those same "pointy-headed-bosses" keep a lot of developers > employed. Exactly. And a lot of corporate help line call center employees employed. And a lot of lawyers employed. And a lot of other big muckity-mucks gainfully employed. It's almost like a club or separate ecosystem. Super-huge-corp-X would probably naturally gravitate towards Adobe, as they'd be like, on the same team, sorta. I'd guess that it's there, where the Real Money is made anyways. In The Enterprise. I think there's plenty of room for both public and private. >> I still wouldn't mind seeing the figures. Anecdotal-ish-ly, it seems >> like the number of OSS projects has "exploded" over the last couple >> years. > > perhaps but it's just as likely that there is now a place to put & publicize > those OS projects (you know, the one that adobe sponsors). as i said my OS > stuff > has nothing to do w/either of those. and let me also point out that most of > ray-the-OS-engine's apps predate railo/BD going OS. i don't see any causal > relationship. Causation, correlation. Yeah. I can dig it. It personally effected me, but I'm just an individual, like everybody else. And to be clear, I'm not knocking Adobe. I'm not saying that they hate open source software or some such. I think they do a lot of stuff that's good. Way more than they get credit for in general, on the list. I like how if you search for CFML, the dev center is the second link on Google. No other language I looked at had that going for it. I like how they sponsor open source projects for incorporating AIR into things and whatnot. It would be cool if more of the sexy CFML apps were listed under "Third Party Whatsists", and the category wasn't called "Third Party Stuff" or whatever. Sorta a showcase of sorts. Neither of the open source engines are pushing things like Mango Blog either, but hell, I could probably send either one a page to put up if I cared that much. That's what's awesome about open source. Well, really, it's that, when I'm like, "why the hell is this doing that?", I don't have to get crazy with a decompiler (not that I'd ever decompile anything, this is just an example). Or, when I'm all like, "I want this to do that" /I can make it happen/! Self-reliance, even if you don't take advantage of it, is a wicked-cool thing to have. But so are stamp collections, to some people, so, take it with a grain of salt. >> Deadly seriously. =) > > you claim that prior to BD/railo failing as commercial projects there was no > stability in CF? geez that's a stretch. The kind of stability I'm talking of? Obviously not, unless you think whoever owned it at the time would have open sourced it, so it would live on. Would you put money on that? Or would you just live with the bugs in the version that came out in 1999, as it were? 10 years later, saying "it's not dead, the last version was just perfect"? >> Do most companies donate the source code to their users when they go >> out of business, in your experience? > > no idea, though i guess that's exactly what BD & railo did. So they both closed up shop, eh? I hadn't heard, but I'm not privy to insider information. Why the venom? Even if that was the case, I'd still cheer my heart out. Do you have so little faith in the language? >> I guess it's all relative. And maybe that 17% is a lie. Nobody likes >> free good stuff. ;)p > > i have a big bottle of wine laced w/rat poison which i will let you have free. > it's certainly good wine except for the rat poison (though the rat poison is > also pretty good rat poison). i guess you want that too? Well, I know this guy who has this very disagreeable alcoholic rat, that keeps raiding his liquor cabinet... >> It's not about Adobe and Railo having a love-in and making babies (& >> FWIW, it's us devs bringing the drama). > > that's not true & you know that's not true. I don't. I know you say it's not true, but I haven't seen the evidence. Can you clue me in to anything solid? >> My point was, that not only would Adobe's base have shrunk, but the >> "CFML" base would have shrunk as well, had I "left". > > you're leaving might not have had anything to do w/cf being a commercial > product > (i don't know your business but i can't really see the cost of cf being much > of > a factor in developing s/w, even here in the "3rd world" it's not all that > much > money relative to everything else involved). it could be that your shop wanted > to adhere to an OS only principle which has nothing to do w/economics. Maybe it also depends on the number of servers you're running? Not-free is not-free, and at some point, enough not-free adds up to, well, a number more than zero. Have I also mentioned how having open source alternatives makes me *so* happy, because now people can't bitch about how much CFML costs? Mostly I'm happy cuz the folks who, for whatever reason, couldn't afford it, and had to leave the language... well, right now, they won't have to. Yippi! And if it's the last scenario, where it's about OS on principle, I'm *still* damn happy, because that means that at least a coder or two has a job using the language they love. Whatever you want to believe, I think it's a happier world with open source CFML engines. >> If you only care about Adobe making money, then there is no real >> difference between the two. > > i care about adobe being around to support & improve cf. they need profits to > do > that. Have you even looked at the open source engines? They're pretty swell. It's kind of nice only having to rely on folks caring, vs. caring and having money, or caring but getting bought out. And even -this probably sounds pretty far out in this day and age, but- being able to rely on yourself. >> However, if you care about your fellow CFML coders putting food on the >> table, so to speak, then there is a pretty big difference between the >> two. > > again i don't see that. dev s/w is free. deploying can be pretty cheap. if > you're doing enterprise level of development then the cost of cf is pretty > small. It's all relative- but one is at fees=0 and the other is at fees=x. Nobody likes working with zeros, but it's nice to be able to, when the need manifests. >> Open Source Software is a powerful, driving force in today's software > > nobody's doubting that but the cf market is different than PHP. they aren't > eating their own intestines. If you want to see it that way, you can. I don't, but who am I to say? CFML would probably have been better without me, anyways. What's that quote about "any club with members like me"? :)p l think it will all work out for the best in the end (and I have proof!). :Den -- I may be no better, but at least I am different. Jean-Jacqu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:341708 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
