Sean's a top bloke, and i wouldn't bare any grudges or blame his way. I'm sure he fought a lot untold / unsaid battles within the belly of the beast (just like I and others do inside Microsoft silently to the outside world - what you think it's all roses inside the firewall?). I also wouldn't of thought he was the man to talk to in this regard, but anyway.
I think at WebDU, you have your moment with Adobe, as a community decide what action items you want from them, calmly put forward your requirements and needs (as a collective audience) and make sure you get commitment / definitive dates. Don't settle for "we're looking into that.." (i know our audiences crucify me the moment i attemp that little question dodge / answer on serious questions) Scott. I think this the first time ever you've agreed with me Andrew.. you have no idea how nervous i feel now.. almost naked like vulnerable. On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:13 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You know Scott… > > > > We have had our debates over time, and at the end of the day. I can't even > raise a finger to disagree with you. > > > > Your last few posts have been well put, and for someone who technically is > the opposition but I long time poster here has seen and done everything that > most of us has. The trials and tribulations of Coldfusion will more than > likely as Chad said, be debated again 2 years down the track. I got very > heated with Sean Corfield for the reasons that we are talking about here. > > > > The attitude was that the sales look good and that was all they cared > about, but the point that got lost is that the jobs slowly disappeared and > as I said to Sean if the sales are good then why aren't developer numbers > increasing, rather than decreasing? > > > > I got irate with Sean, because even though I respect his knowledge and who > he is. I lost respect for him at the time because he wasn't looking at the > bigger picture. That was 5 years ago, and now it is being discussed again. > > > > Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but > it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could be subject to more > applications by the company that I currently don't use now, nor am I aware > that they offer. But I don't need to preach that to you Scott. > > > > As for promoting the product, we as a developer can go so far. The rest is > up to the company, and if there is no support from the company then we as a > developer have to do what is right for ourselves. And if that means moving > to .Net or Java then so be it, I must admit I love .Net and rather find Java > a pain in the rear end. But I am forced to use Java in my job now, and there > is nothing more that Adobe can do about that. If the business model was > different, and the engine was open sourced it might have been a different > story. (Sorry to bring that up again) But for those of you who don't know my > boss was a Coldfusion developer, but due to the lack of good developers he > looked past that and looked at the money offerings in work from elsewhere. > > > > That is the reality of our company, he would have continued with > Coldfusion but not at its cost and lack of foreseeable future of support of > our products. For web design, Coldfusion will always be seen as the niche > application that does everything but costs your first born. > > > > Anyway Scott, from me I wish you all the best. I miss our debatesJ > > > > > > Andrew Scott > > > > > > > > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On > Behalf Of *Scott Barnes > *Sent:* Friday, 11 April 2008 2:48 PM > > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not > FUD from them too? > > > > Yes, I did get promoted and thankfully no more Evangelism. I find the > Evangelism scene, political, annoying and if i have one more heated debate > with the competitors over something minor and trivial, I'll retire and go > paint landscapes.. > > > > My new role is Product Manager in the Rich Client Platform Team > (WPF/Silverlight). > > > > Now that's out of the way. > > > > Let me share some of my learned experience around technology adoption > (specifically in Australia/New Zealand), and specifically brand awareness. > Right now the benefits around why Coldfusion aren't there, in that they may > technically be there but the fact is there is limited marketing around the > product and not just the product but also the community surrounding the > product. > > > > My previous role was an Evangelist, and i bet if i asked anyone on this > list what does that mean, I'd get various answers. An Evangelist role within > Microsoft is simple, help folks with new emerging technology not by ramming > it down their throats, but simply connecting them to people. In that, it > wasn't my job to make you buy ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> or adopt > Silverlight, but if you showed an interest I'd connect you with some folks > whom can either pay you to do the job, help you learn the technology or > provide you with some overview/understanding of what the technologies we had > offer could do. I'd also promote the new technology and with our team, do > presos etc.. that and travel the world and attend really cool parties (but > thats boring right). > > > > Evangelism is crucial to keeping technical communities alive, as it's not > only a contact sport but it's one that scales quite well - if architected > correctly. Find generals in the field, help them, support them, provide as > much as you can to enable them to scale. Right now you folks don't have > Coldfusion Generals. > > > > I mentioned at last years WebDU that Adobe should consider MVP programs or > similar nature (I did myself no favours by doing this) and got laughed at, > as if i was spreading some FUD around or something. MVP programs are > extremely successful inside Microsoft communities, we ensure these folks are > kept in the loop as much as possible and can call on the evangelists etc > anytime should they need anything, some would say they are almost blue > badges themselves. They also have no issue with beating us around the head > should we screw up - some have and done really good job of it - we don't > punish them for it, we instead fix whatever the heck we stuffed up on and > apologise (should it be our fault) as to punish them would cause 20,000 > times more pain for us then the original problem causes (basic math right). > > > > Some fun facts about MVP's todate: > > · Worldwide there are more than 100 million participants in technical > communities. > > · Of these participants there are only 4,000 MVPs located across 93 > countries, spanning more than 30 languages and more than 90 Microsoft > technologies. > > · There has been a 10 percent to 15 percent MVP audience growth in > countries such as China, Russia and Korea > > · Over the past few years new regions with MVPs include the Republic of > Congo, Ghana, Nepal, Macedonia and Macao > > · In recent years, a handful of MVPs have been awarded in new categories > such as MSN, Xbox, Visual Studio Tools for Office, Microsoft Dynamics and > Visual Studio Team System. > > · MVPs are a diverse group that includes accountants, teachers, artists, > government workers, engineers and technologists. > > > > Now, who's laughing? I'm not. It takes a lot of work to get someone into > the MPV program, and just because your the most popular guy/girl on a > mailing list doesn't automatically make you an MPV. It's not whom you know, > it's what you know and I can say outloud, the paperwork internally to get > someone on this program is an effort - but worth it in the end. > > > > My point is really raw and simple. Call it FUD, i don't care - in fact i'd > prefer to keep the politics out of this one. I spent a lot of years waiting > for the Coldfusion scene to pickup. I like most of you at times took the > crappy jobs while the market picked up, I also waited for Macromedia to > finally get some budget to market and so on.. we got told a lot of promises > and fast talkings at WebDU/MXDU's of past and yet nothing much has occurred. > Year after year the Coldfusion question would come up, same or similiar > responses would pacify us for only so long... > > > > eg: > > Remember Suncorp high-fives? Guess how many CF developers are left - over > to you Darren. > > > > I raise this point simply to say guys, enough. You have got realistically > limited choices: > > > > - Start acting like a community and foster better relationships. Don't > bring in the same muffin eaters, look for new ones. > > > > - Understand what motivates adoption in today's market. > > > > - Older generation developers switch to languages simply due to boredom, > perception of no work and last but most important of all, lack of support by > the brand whom owns the language. > > > > - WebDU should be bigger each year, but this year we're not even attending > simply because I couldn't get an ROI story out of it. I'll be honest, year > on year we attend, we really get low value out of attending. We'd rather > focus our energy on events like WD07, BarCamps etc as these folks are not > only agnostic but open to technology discussion, less about brand politics. > > > > - Put more pressure on Adobe to get the budgets or better programs in > place. I'm amazed that we in Australia have 13 Evangelists whom are kept > busy 24/7 and Adobe has 0. One Evangelist for APAC? - how about you have > your own local Adobe celeb to lead you instead of waiting for the US guys to > fly out once a year? > > > > > If you think this thread is doing my employer any favours, think otherwise > and i'm sure i'll get some feedback for it (Today is my last official day as > Evangelist so i have a small amount of free reign here). I leave this as > simply a parting gift to you folks before I head over to the US. I loved > working in the Coldfusion space for many years, despite our petty email > squabbles and thread wars - Taco Fleur, you're still cool - there have been > some real quality friendships made out of this community (actually most of > my best friends are Coldfusion Devs from past) > > > > I'd hate to see that die off, but perception = reality and remember that. > You can sit there and take it or whine about Microsoft all you like, but we > didn't create this problem and more importantly there was a reason why i > simply down tools and went over to Microsoft not knowing a lick of .NET and > it wasn't to get one up on the Adobe/Macromedia crew. > > > That being said, my inbox is open to any whom wish to adopt .NET :) > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:56 PM, CyberAngel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Actually he is now a product manager for Silverlight….. > > > > No more evangelism for Scott J > > > > > > > > *From:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On > Behalf Of *M@ Bourke > *Sent:* Tuesday, 8 April 2008 8:03 PM > > > *To:* cfaussie@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not > FUD from them too? > > > > Just in case anyone is new to the list, Scott is a .net product evangelist > at Microsoft. > > of cos he is most likely unbiased and posted his last comment via an > iPhone :P > > <br > > > > -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
