If all programming language communities are religions, then might J be classified as a heresy?
On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Jo van Schalkwyk <[email protected]> wrote: > Heh. All programming language communities are indistinguishable from > religions. It's a human thing. My 2c, Jo. > > On 9 March 2018 at 08:40, R.E. Boss <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Contrary to what most people think, J is not a programming language, J is > > a religion, at least it shares a remarkable number of characteristics > with > > a religion (and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...). > > Ken Iverson is called The Almighty and Roger Hui his Archangel ( > > http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/general/2001-July/007034.html), and > > like real believers it does not matter that the first passed away and the > > second has changed jobs with a collegial religion. Perhaps together with > > the current Iverson, they can be better considered as the Father, the > Holy > > Spirit and the Son. And since we have the Deity defined, we need a Pope, > > and who better than Henry Rich could play that role? He even > > single-handedly extended and optimised the religion, not to mention the > > Dissect he created, which teaches you to recognize your sins. Recently, > the > > Pope created NuVoc, a children's bible, or, more modern, the bible for > > dummies. > > The Dictionary of course is our original Bible, Koran if you want, and > the > > Vocabulary our catechism, actually only accessible for priests. However, > we > > don't have priests in our community. We do have, c.f. > > https://simplifyconnections.appspot.com/?place=J , novices, advBegs, > > competents, proficients, experts and others, which are probably the > > heathens. Problem is that we are very tolerant within our community and > you > > may give yourself any title you think is appropriate. Perhaps the Pope > > should give this issue some attention. > > > > Contrary to most religions, we don’t preach much, since we only accept > new > > members via a rather steep learning curve. We even don't do much to help > > the newbies or even stimulate them to climb that mountain. So the old > > religious saying "many are called, but few are chosen" is applied here > as " > > many are challenged, but few succeed". > > But as soon as you advance the learning curve more than halfway, you > > experience heaven. > > However, what most new converts do then (not uncommon in religions), is > > try to convert their surroundings to their new religion, unfortunately > > mostly in vain. And if they discover that, they try to alter J, which > > appears to be even harder. > > Some 'fork' religions have been grown, even more obscure than J, but > above > > all, they lack the Trinity J has, which is quite a drawback for a new > faith. > > So here you are, new member of a cult, perhaps even a sect, what now? > > Since I am only a proficient, happy member of this community, I'm afraid > I > > cannot help you. > > > > > > R.E Boss > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Chat <[email protected]> On Behalf Of james > > > faure > > > Sent: donderdag 1 maart 2018 03:40 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [Jchat] Where is J going ? > > > > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, > > it will be > > > quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J > (correct > > > me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from first > hand > > > experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends in J > > and in fact > > > have yet to get a single other person from Epitech > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe > they > > are > > > convinced of it's power. > > > > > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> > > > international.epitech.eu > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has > > > solidified its reputation ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest > in > > J, I > > > will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the > > hope that > > > it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time > > that I > > > heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about > > > whether the language would have a future and whether it would be > suitable > > > to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason > I > > am > > > here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from > time > > to > > > time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth > > learning. > > > Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main place > > where > > > people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those conditions > being > > > met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely determined, > > and > > > was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare time. I have > > shown > > > J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person who uses it, > > most > > > of those people never made it past the first few steps. The learning > > curve > > > has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of this decade. > > As an > > > aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are harsh, so please > > > keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for help on J's > > behalf. > > > Also please do not think me arrogant because of my convictions. I am > well > > > aware that I am not affiliated with nor in charge of jsoftware. > > > > > > My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source > > forum > > > about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for > > such a > > > simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that > > extended > > > precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even > > threatened > > > my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's > > ability > > > to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's > > complete > > > failure to keep up with modern trends: > > > > > > > > > 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult > to > > make > > > google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface > > > every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt > sufficiently > > > annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed. > > > > > > 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. > > Some people > > > I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of > visiting > > it. > > > > > > 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely > popular > > > nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and > will > > > always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this > prove > > > unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has > > almost > > > no presence on SO. > > > > > > 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an > > abherration: > > > nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate > > this and > > > that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have much > > more > > > logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given logical > > names like > > > 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace is a miniscule > > one. I > > > also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like '2 o. y', and > '6!:2' > > etc.. > > > but for that to happen, these need standard default names, even > multiple > > > aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the miniscule performance loss > > > associated with having multiple equivalent names, the possibility of > > > guessingand have it work anyway is far more important. > > > > > > 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should > > certainly > > > not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run optimally > > > > > > 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in > > > keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I > > very > > > much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, > > but the > > > website's overall presentation is not good. > > > > > > 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs, > > (not > > > my learning style but for sure they are valuable) > > > > > > 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, on > > > jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd > party > > > https://tio.run/#j > > > > > > This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently > > > hooked in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. > > > > > > 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats the > > binary, > > > builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' should print > > some > > > example uses of insert and a brief summary) > > > > > > 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank > error' > > > not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending nouns + > > their > > > ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug interface, but > > this > > > shouldn't be necessary. > > > > > > 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many more > > > explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). > > > > > > 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given the > > > current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. > > > > > > > > > Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, and it > > must lie > > > dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising up again, > > in a > > > new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting for. > > > > > > I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but > > things must > > > change, and radically if J is to live. > > > > > > J4 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
