This will probably be my last email, but I¹ll try one last time to make my position clear:
Several of my colleagues (mostly in our parent company) think we should switch to Apache, but I would prefer to find a better solution. So, I requested funding and was given it. I spent £000s developing a very good solution, but because Zeus hasn¹t updated its ISAPI support since v4, and because of what looks like a bug in Zeus¹s garbage collection, we can¹t use it in production. Since I am the only senior manager in our group that is opposed to the idea of using Apache, it wouldn¹t be easy to secure more funding to test another alternative. So, I have 2 options: either give up, or try to find support in the open source community from developers who would appreciate our contribution and be willing to help us take it further. If I could demonstrate that there is a demand for this, and that we wouldn¹t be left with an indefinite maintenance overhead, I could probably even get more funding but obviously I¹m not able to make any promises. My suspicion was that there are many more individuals and companies out there who would like to make greater use of Cherokee, but can¹t because if it¹s lack of support for htaccess and mod_rewrite. If there are, they¹re obviously not subscribers to this mailing list. Marcus > > My understanding is that it has to be ported and he doesn't want to lay down a > cent in return for any efforts despite being able to make the decision to use > Cherokee. > > In other words he has some code that doesn't work, wants someone to port it > free of charge, and even though he seems to be the one who is able to decide > to use Cherokee he doesn't have any financial influence over his company... > > On Oct 22, 2010, at 11:32, "Alvaro [Andor]" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Reading his emails I understand that it's already developed, he is offering >> it to us. >> >> El 22/10/10 17:29, Max Countryman escribió: >>> >>> You host 600,000+ sites and you can't afford to develop this functionality? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, I'm not buying it. >>> >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2010, at 11:25, Marcus Don <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> We¹ve already done that for Zeus and, as I¹ve explained, I don¹t think I >>>> would be able to secure more funding when we can just use Apache instead. >>>> Although I personally believe it would be worth the investment - and that >>>> we should always try to provide a better service than our competitors >>>> rather than just copy them it¹s very difficult to promote an unproven >>>> solution over one that is being used by 70% of all sites on the web. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then as a commercial venture, employ someone to create that functionality >>>>> for you if you can't or won't yourself. Or experiment with the already >>>>> available redirection handler which seems to do a fine job of replacing >>>>> the mod_rewrite functionality. >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 22, 2010, at 11:11, Marcus Don <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> What it does is allow non-developers to install thousands of applications >>>>>> into a shared hosting account without the need for them to employ a >>>>>> developer. It¹s not a question of functionality, it¹s a matter of >>>>>> commercial necessity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Marcus >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I missing something? What does mod_rewrite do that the redirection >>>>>>> handler doesn't do? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think your approach may be a little off: no one is here to develop >>>>>>> software for you regardless of how many perspective servers you want to >>>>>>> use it with. That should be irrelevant to the discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2010, at 10:32, Marcus Don <[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> > > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Tony Thanks for your feedback. We¹ve already invested a considerable amount in developing this software, so I doubt I could secure more funding to adapt it to another platform. Even if I could, there is no commercial case for us to continue funding the ongoing development and maintenance when we can use Apache for free. So, by providing such as significant head-start, I was hoping I could drum up enough support among the existing Cherokee developers. Regards Marcus I am sure everyone wants to see Cherokee use grow. However, volunteer developers can only do so much. They still have to earn a living. If you are going to use it on that scale, which is great, why not put some money on the table as an investment for you and the community. Even if it is not what you would pay a contractor, volunteers might be much more motivated. You would still be benefiting from the incredible amount of work that has already gone into Cherokee. Also, if use grows worldwide, you would benefit in the long run if other commercial companies decided to begin to deploy it and contribute back code. Just my two cents. Tony Zakula On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Marcus Don <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > wrote: Since I've had virtually no response to my email below, I'll try again in far fewer words. I'm interested in using Cherokee to host around 50,000 sites and 600,000 domains, with the potential to extend this to 600,000 sites and 1.6 million domains. Unfortunately, our customers want mod_rewrite, which Cherokee doesn't currently support. However, we own the source code for a mod_rewrite equivalent, which we are willing to donate to Cherokee if enough people are interested. If you are interested in the possibility of Cherokee becoming a serious alternative to Apache for commercial, mass hosting, please let me know. Thanks Marcus > Hi > > Apologies in advance for the length of this email, please bear with me :) > > First an introduction: I'm senior manager of R&D for a group of ISPs including > register.it <http://register.it> <http://register.it> <http://register.it <http://register.it> > <http://register.it <http://register.it> <http://register.it <http://register.it> > > <http://register.it <http://register.it> <http://register.it <http://register.it> > <http://register.it <http://register.it> <http://register.it <http://register.it> > > > , names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> <http://names.co.uk> <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> > <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> > > <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> > <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> <http://names.co.uk <http://names.co.uk> > > > , nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> <http://nominalia.es> <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> > <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> > > <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> > <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> <http://nominalia.es <http://nominalia.es> > > > , amen.fr <http://amen.fr> <http://amen.fr> <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> > <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> > > <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> > <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> <http://amen.fr <http://amen.fr> > > > , register365.com <http://register365.com> <http://register365.com> <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> > <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> > > <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> > <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> <http://register365.com <http://register365.com> > > > , and > simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> <http://simplyhosting.com> <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> > <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> > > <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> > <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> <http://simplyhosting.com <http://simplyhosting.com> > > > . As a group, we host over 1.6 million domains and 600,000 > web sites. > > Currently, we have 3 shared hosting clusters in Italy, the UK and Ireland. The > Italian platform is based on Apache and the UK and Irish platforms are based > on Zeus Web Server. We also have a legacy platform, inherited from a recent > acquisition, based on Apache and H-Sphere, which we are currently migrating to > Zeus. > > Until recently, we have been very happy with our choice of Zeus Web Server. We > have gained a solid reputation in the UK for having a very high-performing and > reliable platform, and we have won the UK ISP Award (ISPA) for Best Shared > Hosting for the last 3 years running. However, we are now considering > migrating away from ZWS for the following reasons: > > 1) It hasn't been updated since 2007, and Zeus will not commit to any future > updates other than security patches. > 2) It makes commercial sense for us to use the same technology everywhere in > the group. > 3) Zeus does not support mod_rewrite. > > Given these requirements, and the fact we are already using it in Italy, the > obvious solution would be to use Apache on all platforms. However, I am > seriously concerned that the performance would suffer as a result, so I'm > currently studying the feasibility of other options. > > The need for mod_rewrite is a practical, commercial requirement based on the > fact that many 3rd-party applications require rewrite rules, and the vast > majority only work with mod_rewrite without the intervention of a developer. > This has always been something of issue for us, and the growing popularity of > open source software among non-developers is greatly exacerbating the problem. > Also, we now provide Softaculous for our customers, but we've had to disable > many of the 150+ applications because of their reliance on mod_rewrite. > > Furthermore, when we started migrating the H-Sphere platform, we found an > unusually high proportion of domains are using mod_rewrite. During previous > migrations, we have replaced them with Zeus rewrite scripts, but this time the > numbers are just too high. > > So, we recently employed an experienced C developer to write an ISAPI filter > to replicate exactly the behaviour of mod_rewrite under Zeus. However, > although this works perfectly in our development environment (even under > extremely heavy loads), after a few days on the live platform, something goes > very wrong. After several weeks of debugging, testing and reading memory > dumps, we're convinced the problem is with Zeus's ISAPI implementation - but > so far we are unable to prove it, and I'm not sure they would fix it even if > we could! > > If you are interested, I am confident I could arrange for the source code of > our ISAPI Rewrite module to be released to the Cherokee project for use as an > optional module. Obviously, the ISAPI layer would need to be replaced, but > this is a minor part of the code. All we ask in return is that someone adds > support for the other, mostly very simple, htaccess directives. I can ask the > original developer if he would be willing to contribute to this, but he > doesn't work for me so I can't guarantee it. > > Without this functionality, the only other option available to us is LiteSpeed > - but I'm not keen on adopting another closed-source solution that isn't > gaining significant market share. Also, I am convinced this is the only major > hurdle preventing other mass hosting providers from moving away from Apache to > something that scales more efficiently, such as Cherokee. > > Lastly, I have another feature suggestion to address the needs of mass hosting > - support for custom document root mapping functions. > > Currently, we use the same method as shown in the documentation - ie > /sites/e/x/example.com <http://example.com <http://example.com> <http://example.com <http://example.com> > <http://example.com <http://example.com> <http://example.com <http://example.com> > > > . This is fine for a few 10s of thousands of sites, but > not very efficient once you get beyond 100,000. A better solution is what we > use on our email clusters, which have many more users (around 1,000,000 in > Italy). This uses the last 3 characters of the MD5 checksum of the username, > like this: /email/5ab/example.com <http://example.com <http://example.com> <http://example.com <http://example.com> > <http://example.com <http://example.com> <http://example.com <http://example.com> > > > . This produces a more even distribution and, > by being wide and shallow, allows for a much more efficient stat cache. > > Regards > > Marcus > -- > Marcus Don > Senior Manager > Research and Development > DadaPro > > Main Line: +44 (0)845 363 3630 > Main Fax: +44 (0)845 363 3631 > Tech Support: +44 (0)845 363 3634 > Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > Website: http://www.names.co.uk <http://www.names.co.uk> <http://www.names.co.uk <http://www.names.co.uk> > <http://www.names.co.uk <http://www.names.co.uk> <http://www.names.co.uk <http://www.names.co.uk> > > > Address: Acton House, Perdiswell Park, Worcester WR3 7GD > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. > > If you have received this email in error please notify the sender > immediately. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that > disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the > contents of this information is strictly prohibited. Please note that any > views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and > do not necessarily represent those of the company. > > Finally, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the > presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused > by any virus transmitted by this email. _______________________________________________ Cherokee mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> > <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> > > _______________________________________________ Cherokee mailing list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Cherokee mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee >>>>>>> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> >>>>>>> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee >>>>>>> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> > >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Cherokee mailing list >>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee >>>>> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Cherokee mailing list >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee >>> <http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Cherokee mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee > > > _______________________________________________ > Cherokee mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee
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