Java and C++ both have places to start. You can get a Hello World up in about 5 minutes. If you take the attitude "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out," then people will head out and make sure the aforementioned door doesn't strike. This isn't a game. Its not a toy. Its not something that can be said "like it or leave it." Its a technology. And the other newbies to this product are likely not as tenacious as I am and will say "well to hell with it." Cocoon needs some SERIOUS work in the usability zone. No no, I don't expect to understand it in 12 hours. Don't be ridicules. I do expect to be able to make a start on understanding it in 12 hours though. Having Hello-World up in 12 hours is not exactly a steep request.
If the users have to build from source, which is NEVER a straightforward process, they will take off and find something easier. Ant, for example, is massively extensible. I still don't understand I all 2 years after using it. However I'm a user and not a developer of it. Therefore I don't care to understand it. Yes, there is allot more in ant that I can use but I don't need it professionally and I don't have time to get into things that I don't need. I have NEVER built ant from source. Nor tomcat, nor JBoss, nor any of the other TOOLS I use to accomplish my job. A job that has nothing to do with developing and understanding the architecture of cocoon. So there is a dichotomy you are missing. The line between the developer and the user. The USERS don't have time to learn Avalon and cocoon and a billion other things. All of this detail should be HIDDEN from them. Right now I get the impression that if I ever did want to make my own generator, I would need to mount 50 jars into my NetBeans project. NOT AN OPTION. One jar, fine. 50, no. Cocoon is missing this layer of abstraction. The cocoon jar file should be packed with classes abstracting things out so people who don't know jack about Avalon can write a generator or action. There should be a single jar (perhaps with contained jars) that I can drop in some magic location and magically write cocoon apps. Configuring it should be a matter of minutes (if at all) not a matter of hours to understand. I don't care about setting the properties of the WML serializer. I'm not even going to use the WML serializer. My goal is to snap together a web site, route it through cocoon with my own sitemap and pipeline and go. Anything I don't specify or configure should DEFAULT to pre-configured settings. So yell "get the hell out!" all you want. People will. And instead of cocoon winning the race and capturing the minds and hearts of web publishers, it will be .NET. The whole .NET framework should teach you something. If its too complex to understand, it will LOOSE no matter how good it is. When the new users go to .NET and put up hello-world in 20 minutes, cocoon wont have a chance. So cocoon has really two options in my newbie opinion. 1) Start putting in that layer that attracts new users. 2) Die. As for me personally, I'm already far behind schedule now. 2 days of dealing with this thing and getting nowhere. Ill give it a couple more hours of consideration and if I still cant get a hello-world up without knowing a thing about the internal architecture, I will move on and implement it all in JSP. Scoff all you want. But a JSP hello-world page I was able to get up and working in 15 minutes. -- Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Gallardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:38 AM Subject: Re: Cocoon is complex, HOLD ON, WHY IS THIS BOILING UP ? > SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous dijo: > > And especially the newbies can give so valuable insight, even if they > seem to be ignorant (they aren't ignorant at all. They are new to this > !!!) > > Yes I know this point, but for this reason you cannot just come here and > after 12 hours, start attacking something you dont know. This is the worng > way. In place you can ask in another way. > > Also, everyone of us had the same problem and feel when we started at > Cocoon. This is crazy, my first question was: "When can I start?". > > But this is not a good approach sign-in on the mail list and start > commenting about this. If you wish a well documented framework wait for > the release of MS .NET of mid 2005 and maybe at that time you will have > something that will looks that the current version of Cocoon. Of course > Cocoon in that time will be light-years ahead! I am not joking. MS already > has started a few months ago a similar project in the .NET arena. > > In the OpenSources the things goes a diferent way. This is not a company > where are people getting money to support you. Then the less you can do is > thanks people that use his time to help you. How you will fell if somebody > stop you at the street and start attacking you just because you dont know > where is the street called "X"? This is ridiculous, right? I think some > people here had the same feel. > > Nobody is forced to convince you stay and for tis reason I better stay > away of this class of thread. If he does not want to get this nice stuff. > His problem, not mine. ;-) But I bet he will come back. I saw it many > times in the timeline..... > > At the end, > > I remember the times when some people was attacking GUI, just because > there does not understand it. It was at my students days..... Some > collegues told things like: > > "Windows 3.1 requiere too many recurses and is so slow. This will never be > a good stuff" At that time (1992) a 286 with 1 MB and HD 40 MB was a super > computer for a student like us. i386 was the Opteron of these days (the > new 32-bits technology - wow!, like now is the transition to the new > 64-bits technology - wow again! :-). > > I remember one teacher that told: > > "You think you are the 'great boys' just because you can open 30 windows > in your PC. I dont want to waste my eyes burning it with 640*468 pixel > lightning at my eyes!" > > Behind his back we joking if he has a room at his house with his own > saloon computer all just for him!". Because for him our computers was toys > and nothing more. > > Maybe you will be loling about this comments. But this was what we meet at > the University at my times. People that all the time used text terminal > and with the GUI revolution just starting they does not understand what > happens around and just attacking GUI. > > Another example of this, the long discusion about if Java will survive or > not? We have C and C++! > > Well, we are know at the doors of the Web revolution called XML. Please > open your eyes! > > Best Regards, > > Antonio Gallardo > > > > > Maybe we should calm down a bit and take this thread really > > serious. It contains much of material to think about. > > And in many senses the criticism here can't be discussed > > away. > > I never got angry. I agree. > > Antonio Gallardo. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Please check that your question has not already been answered in the > FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
