There's a lot to unpack with all of these issues (size/weight/age/disability/gender-attachment/historical precedents/etc/etc/etc).
I know an older, colleague (caller) who deals with people not wanting to dance with him (b/c of age),. At the same time, he has no interest in dancing (mostly the swinging part) with another man. He's okay with alternate swing holds, but really had a hard time when someone "insisted" on ballroom hold - he just flat out said no. I've personally dealt with issues over the years - people who strong-arm you; people who decide there are no boundaries; people who think it's fun to swing you off your feet. I've never had any problem dealing with any of the situations, but I have talked with a number of people over the years who've left dances b/c of things like that. That brings up the need to remind people that we all have various comfort levels, and if someone offers an alternative hold (or way of doing a figure) that is less "intimate", that should be honored. I know many people who are extremely uncomfortable with a "right-shoulder-round meltdown" (trying to remember to refrain from the term most aren't using anymore). Back in the day (lol), callers used to offer very brief (1-2 minutes) but important "dance etiquette" moments scattered throughout the evening - I think it's still greatly needed. Easier to do at a family dance or a community dance, but no less important (maybe more so) at many contra dances. My 2 cents - Patricia Patricia Campbell (she/her) Biddeford, ME On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:36 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < [email protected]> wrote: > I'm nodding with a lot of comments from the last couple days. Louise > articulated some base concepts clearly, which a lot of y'all expanded on. > > There are some contradictory ideas about gender and sexuality with dance, > and I think we in general tend to shy away from delving too deeply in > public discussion. I've been accused of "shaming" people for asking why a > man may prefer dancing with women. The thing is, I've also said what I > think nearly everyone - including most/all of the strongest advocates for > genderfree contra - has said: its OK to have preferences for partners. I > think it is sometimes hard to presume these discussions are done assuming > the benefit of good intent, given how much gender and sexuality is an > enormous political and civil rights topic in the US and most Western > nations. But, I presume this good intent, and I think nearly everyone here > does, too, so, I'm taking another stab at this topic. > > Here's some ideas I've been chewing over in an attempt to dig into this > more deeply: > - dance is often a courtship ritual > - despite this, inter-gender set dancing has a long tradition in Western > dance, and partnering with someone hasn't really ever been a "oh, I am > attracted to them". To use the overused example of Jane Austen novels, even > then it's clear family dance together, friends dance together, and > strangers dance together just to have any partner. > - children are at our dances. So if a person is choosing partners based on > heterosexual tradition, why, um: EW > > And thus is where the conversation often stops. But to break it down more: > > - So, when someone says they prefer to dance in non-genderfree dances, > with a partner of a different binary-presenting gender person, in trad > roles, there's 2 possible, non-exclusive reasons: > 1. That their choice is about courtship, but "make exceptions" for people > you're not attracted to. Which, I guess is fine in and of itself, but I > think people with this preference often may not consider _just how many > exceptions_ there are. > 2. Their choice is more about embracing traditional gender roles. I'll get > back to this. > > So, in the case of #1, the problem isn't just about "what do we do with > the fact that about 5% of people aren't straight". (And realize the number > being 3 or 4 times as high among surveyed youth, with numbers lower in > areas where anti-lgbtq law and sentiment pervades). > > The problem is also about fat phobia. And bias against people who aren't > "conventionally attractive". And ageism. And disability phobia. Then > there's the even worse case of when a person both claims attraction is > their main factor for partner preference ... and also has a preference for > much younger dancers. :| > > Pushing back on the idea of "partner preference because of sexual > preference" is about all these issues - fatphobia, ageism, disability > phobia, beauty-bias, etc. Now, maybe these things aren't a priority to > everyone, but, I'm going to assume that the overwhelming majority of people > on Shared Weight are interested in most, if not all of them. And, > inevitably, remember - youth, beauty, and able-bodiedness all will fade for > everyone. > > In reality, I think partner and role preference for trad-gender-partnering > actually has to do more with gender norms. So insofar as sexual-attraction > for partner preference, I think pushing back, openly, against this, can > benefit dance communities in many ways. And, ultimately if that's not > actually the main reason, then it isn't really harming anyone if we present > it and deal with it with compassion and patience for those having > difficulty with the change. It's not like people aren't going to flirt and > meet sexual partners anyway; we simply don't need to establish dance as a > courtship-by-default space. > > Which leads to look at the other reason, #2: wanting trad gender > partnering because you just like trad gender roles. > > In and of itself, that's fine. If you like ways of having your binary > gender reinforced, there's nothing wrong with that. And while I'm not > transgender, my friends who are and have shifted/come out as a different > binary gender identity deserve to have their gender affirmed, too. While > me, personally, I don't need reinforcement about being man (which is its > own privilege), I respect people's desire for their gender to be respected > and celebrated. > > So, what does that mean for dancing? > - Ultimately, as long as people are finding partners and having fun and > people are respectful of anyone they meet in line, great! > - As noted, splitting up people because of gender is disrespectful on > several levels. > - That complaining about "ah, so many neighbors are my same gender" is > setting one's own preference above everyone else's. In short: it's selfish. > - If someone refuses to dance with someone of the same gender (or > nonbinary/agender folks who "don't look like the opposite gender") then > that's selfish. It's not _as_ selfish as the last item, and, generally, if > this is what they choose, I don't see the positive outcomes from pushing it. > > So, if someone wants to just dance trad gender preference in partners, > that's fine to me. > > There is, though, the big Catch 22: > > If someone believes gendered roles "are just role names", while > simultaneously have a strong/sole preference trad-gender-partnering, this > is self-contradictory. That person is trying to have it both ways. > > And so, I leave with the thought: this last bit I see as a core sticking > point to more equality and inclusion at dances. > > How do we address this? > > Can we start looking at this more openly in a way that is compassionate > buy also more direct that we have been? > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > He/Him > Western Mass > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 12:24 PM Tanya Merchant via Contra Callers < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I’m bumping this for folks who want to talk about gender preference in >> dance partners. >> >> And while I understand the valid social and historical context that would >> make inactive roles a good thing for the social part of social dancing, >> like Jeff, I’m also really glad we don’t do that much anymore. >> >> >> Tanya H. Merchant >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 06:01 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> "The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper >>> or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both >>> sides of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner >>> interactions were with the opposite gender" >>> >>> That's one advantage for some people, but another advantage of >>> Improper and Becket is that they make it much easier to have >>> equal-turn dances, where everyone is 'active' simultaneously. No more >>> waiting fifteen times through for a chance to be a "one" and then only >>> getting to dance it twice before the music stops. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:54 AM Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > On the topic of a comfortable swing that maintains the ballroom hold, >>> i'll repeat the suggestion I offered a few months back. >>> > >>> > As part of our transition to promoting a culture of "we encourage >>> everyone to dance with everyone else, regardless of gender, age, level of >>> experience or any other factor" - and also as a reaction to covid, we've >>> started designating the standard neighbour swing (and default partner >>> swing, if you don't know your partner and don't want to experiment), as a >>> "modified ballroom hold" - which we call the "elbow hold". >>> > >>> > This swing gives a little more space between the couple, without in >>> any way compromising the effectiveness of the swing in my opinion. (Though >>> I am sure there will be some other opinions out there ;). ) >>> > >>> > Ballroom hands same as always. >>> > >>> > Other hand cupped around the back of the upper arm of your partner, >>> just above the elbow. >>> > >>> > Taller person's arm goes above the shorter persons arm. >>> > >>> > The more I practice this hold, the more I like it. >>> > I find it makes me more comfortable with everyone (and in fact, as a >>> cisgender woman I find it makes the most difference to me when dancing with >>> men, I have found I like having a bit of extra space between me and any man >>> who is not my spouse :) ) >>> > >>> > I offer this in the spirit of "something my group finds effective". >>> > >>> > >>> > KK >>> > >>> > Mar 12, 2024 7:18:46 AM John Sweeney via Contra Callers < >>> [email protected]>: >>> > >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > I once called Chris Page’s dance where the dancers >>> scatter individually and find someone with whom to do a Gypsy Meltdown >>> (Gypsy & Swing). Many of the ladies got together leaving two men alone in >>> the middle of the dance-floor. There was absolutely no way that those two >>> men were going to Swing each other in a Ballroom Hold. >>> > >>> > There was an article in the EFDSS magazine not so long >>> ago about this very challenge. The author was concerned that by going >>> gender-free they would lose many good male dancers who weren’t comfortable >>> with the situation. >>> > >>> > Someone in these threads said that, if you prefer >>> dancing with ladies, then there is nothing preventing you from only asking >>> ladies for a dance. But what happens when you get in the set and find that >>> every Neighbour that you meet is a man! >>> > >>> > I and my wife dance many styles, West Coast Swing, Blues, Ceroc, >>> Modern Jive, Tango, Salsa, etc. 99% of the time it is one man with one >>> lady (OK, I specialise in dancing with two ladies at once, but that is >>> another matter!). Occasionally there will be same-sex pairings, and nobody >>> thinks anything of it. But it is not being forced on them in the way that >>> contra dancing is forcing same-sex pairings as you meet and interact with >>> all your Neighbours. >>> > >>> > The whole point of moving away from Proper to First Couples Improper >>> or Becket was that you then had people of the opposite gender on both sides >>> of you in your minor set, so that all Neighbour and Partner interactions >>> were with the opposite gender! >>> > >>> > I think part of the challenge is the very close Ballroom-Hold Swing >>> which many men find too intimate with another man. Of course there are >>> lots of symmetrical holds that don’t have the same challenge – you are >>> further apart. They don’t have the “Pointy Hand” to help you remember >>> which side to finish on. I often use these myself in contra dances when I >>> have a good partner, doing a different Swing each time through the dance, >>> but I know which side to finish the Swing on. I suspect the Ballroom-Hold >>> Swing is too embedded in Contra Dance culture to change now, though, of >>> course, it was not always so. >>> > >>> > The communities that I call for all want men dancing with ladies. I >>> use geographic and positional calling where it helps. I start most >>> sessions by saying, “Find a partner, traditionally one man and one lady, >>> but anyone can dance with anyone.” 99% of the time they will dance with >>> the opposite gender. >>> > >>> > Personally I have a real problem with Larks & Robins since I use Men & >>> Ladies in my calling. For me the L in Lark makes me think of Ladies, not >>> Left. It really hurts my brain! >>> > >>> > I am all for anyone dancing with anyone. I dance the Lady’s role and >>> will Swing anyone. I love Chaos Lines! (And please don’t assume that you >>> know anything about my sexuality!) >>> > >>> > I feel that it is very sad that the traditional and historic concepts >>> are being lost. Our culture has always been very inclusive, with everyone >>> welcome and anyone dancing with anyone they want. I am not at all convinced >>> that any benefits outweigh the losses. >>> > >>> > Happy dancing, >>> > >>> > John >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & >>> 07802 940 574 >>> > >>> > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- [email protected] >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >
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