On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:49:21 +0100 Steffen Barszus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Friday 10 January 2003 17:02, Pierre Fortin wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:57:24 -0500 Sascha Noyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > According to distrowatch Mandrake 9.1 beta1 is out on some mirrors.
> >
> > This is NOT a support request for 9.0 --
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> <----snip----->
>
> > I wish I had the time to test cooker; but here's a short list of 9.0
> > problems that has had me considering reverting back to 8.2 today
> > (several of my systems are still happily on 8.2)... they are intended
> > to be things that Mdk should make sure don't happen again in 9.1:
> >
> > New ThinkPad on which I installed 8.2 and several days later, used the
> > new upgrade option (the one able to handle back to 8.1) to get to 9.0
> >
> > 0**. ISOs created for post-standard 700MB CDs (this is like trying to
> > write 2MB on *any* 1.44 floppy drive ever manufactured) excommunicated
> > all users who didn't own standards-extending writers.
> >
> 700MB CDs are in my area the only one you will get. It is quite
> complicated to become 650 MB cd-r's. Where is it written, that it is bad
> ? How many people have really problems with that beside you ? Isn't it
> enough that the club has provided 650 MB ISOs ?
The point is that if Mandrake wants to grow its user base, it shouldn't
make things more difficult than necessary for the sake of trying to save a
few pennies by cramming the ISOs to the point where a lot of people won't
be able to burn them...
I've made the point; if Mdk releases 9.1 on >650MB ISOs, they will never
know how many new users they've lost because of that decision. And, yes,
I have a new CD-RW... but that does not mean I can't advocate for those
people who are yet to try to make the transition to Linux...
> > 1**. ohphone was not compiled properly -- this is *important* in that
> > it is used to support *my* users who are scattered hundreds of miles
> > away -- I've not had time to find the sources and rebuild -- besides,
> > what about my other users...? Create another "SuperFOO" issues? No
> > thanks! But, some s/w (ssh, ohphone,...) should not require being
> > voted upon to get updates issued, since without them, user support
> > becomes problematic or extra-cost.
> >
> So you are a user of ohphone. I've never used it and the above said
> isn't really something that would bother me. For sure some software are
> standard (ssh) and they should be in without someone to vote for them.
My point was that they should *work* -- ohphone never worked in 9.0
If those of us who support remote customers can't use ohphone as in the
past, our support costs have gone up because we have to pay for LD. For
that reason, I consider ohphone just as important as ssh...
> > 2. after a few weeks on 9.0, the system became so unstable and flaky
> > (many reboots required) that hardware problems were seriously
> > considered as the cause. "fix" was to delete ~/.kde and reboot.
> >
> Never saw problems here. Indeed I had such problems on 8.2. Kde and
> mandrake is rockstable on my machine.
What's your uptime? Mine is a "whopping":
4:51pm up 2 days, 19:09, 14 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
^^^^^^
and I *HATE* rebooting... I use the laptop sleep mode; but that can only
be used 2-3 times before needing a reboot...
> > 3a. remote support was initially complicated by unannounced shorewall
> > default installation that did not consider ssh important, drove me
> > nuts until I found it.
>
> That outgoing ssh is blocked by the packetfilter isn't bad. Indeed it is
> good , beside of machines that will be remotly administered. But If you
> install the machine it should be easy to be sure that sshd is reachable.
Yup... and when your tests fail... ethereal doesn't help... you wonder
what the fsck is going on.. then you discover a new firewall... ARGH!
> > 3b. shorewall complicated switching between LAN and modem access to
> > 'net
> >
> > 4. installation of lisa and samba after I carefully requested NO
> > Windows/Samba related s/w of any sort.
>
> Haven't encountered this. On my machine it was not the case.
"lisa" is not running...? I'm surprised...
> > 5. Installation of LinModem support was more troublesome than in 8.2
> > -- while not delivered in a Mandrake distro, at least ensuring that a
> > new distro does not make installation of LinModem s/w more difficult
> > is important to winning new users.
> >
> There was some other cases of previously supported hardware, that wasn't
>
> recognized anymore. Its a pitty, yes
>
>
> > 6. CD filesystem got confused (displaying "??????" for each filename
> > and permission denied) requiring a reboot (there's that fscking word
> > again)
> >
>
> Switching off supermount should help, and again I haven't encountered
> this problem on my machine ...
>
> > 7. Sound stopped working (lsof showed several apps accessing sound) --
> > rebooted to fix.
> >
> Where are for sure other ways. I can't imagine that your often reboots
> are really neccessary. And it seems to me, that it is a problem of the
> snd-card driver. Which card is it ?
>
>
> > 8. CUPS decided to start trying to connect to my gateway (LinkSys
> > router) in order to print to the LOCAL printer causing >1minute delays
> > in print starts -- application is hung until the job prints.
> > Condidering reboot after sending this note. Each print job leaves a
> > defunct xpp process too.
> >
> That sounds strange. Maybe a missconfigured CUPS ?
and *how* does a working CUPS config suddenly become misconfigured on its
own... LOCAL printer has to wait for CUPS trying to connect on port 631
to my IP gateway...???
> > 9. miscellaneous other nits
> >
> I really can'tz confirm your problems. Mandrake 9.0 was the fastest ,
> rockstablest version I ever used ( I'm a user of mandrake since 6.1)
Me too since 6.1, RH before that; but it appears we have different results
-- mine are on IBM ThinkPad.
>
> > ** My financial situation is different than other retirees because I
> > get NO government checks (a heart attack prevented me from reaching
> > the number of "points" required to qualify) and I live *only* on the
> > equity I built up. Between the additional cost of a new CD-RW and the
> > long distance bills which weren't there with a working ohphone, the
> > money budgeted for the Club was eroded. This should not be a
> > surprise; I stated this at the time of the 700MB CD issues and again
> > to the Club people at Mdk who chose to ignore the very comments that
> > were *requested as feedback* in the Club renewal memo I got.
> >
> No comment. (what has your particular situation to do with mandrake ?)
Budget... if dollars earmarked for Club have to be spent on new CD-RW and
long distance, Club loses...
>
> > Note that Linux is touted as a no-reboot-required OS... I have had to
> > reboot 9.0 so many times that it feels like I must have accidentally
> > installed W9x... :^P
> >
> Can't confirm that. I have usually an uptime of 7-14 days and the
> reboots then are not caused by the OS , more by power-faults, or
> rebooting for changing hardware.
I have UPS systems and the laptop has a good battery, and uptimes of less
than a week on laptop are not a good sign when I'm the guy who would be
ecstatic if it were possible to install new distro on a running system and
"switch-over" without rebooting... but that's still way off in the
future...
> >
> > The problem Mdk may be facing is that the cooker list is more geeky
> > than it used to be and those "little issues" that are important to win
> > new users and retain those users who are just trying to get things
> > done (not become cooker testers) are being tossed aside or made short
> > shrift of.
> >
> The QA of released version should be made better. Is there a bugzilla
> for doing so in meantime ? It isn't a solution to say a released version
> is bug free. And it is a pain to reporting bugs in this way. Ignoring
> bugs in a release version causes:
> - a to small errata list
> - bugs over several releases
Exactly!
>
> > For example, I have suggested that a new release should have a period
> > of time after release where issues should be treated just like any
> > other cooker problem -- this was ignored and any <new release> issue
> > is bounced from the cooker list as a "support" issue. That's a sure
> > way to give users the impression that Mdk has moved to a "dump a
> > snapshot out the door and issue plea for contributions" model... not
> > an image that evokes confidence.
> >
> This I can't second. There should be for sure a possibility to solve
> bugs in a release (better reporting, faster updates). But if cooker is
> the right place for it ? I would vote for a release bugzilla !
Regardless of the mechanism, a cultural change where release bugs have
equal or higher priority to cooker would benefit everyone, esp. Mdk.
> > I don't want to belabor the point; but Mdk has embarked on a slippery
> > slope with the release of 9.0 IMO. 9.1 will either restore or kill my
> > enthusiasm for future Mdk releases...
> >
> > A suggestion (probably made previously by others): release interim
> > cooker ISOs to get more coverage by thos of us who... -- ahh.. never
> > mind, that would require an infrastructure and culture that wouldn't
> > orphan 9.1cookerA like it does <current release>... and no,
> > <x.y>beta[1-3] is not what I mean (that discussion will take us in
> > orthogonal directions).
> >
> > I'm sure this will draw flames; but it is intended to shine a light on
> > some issues which are dangerous, IMO, to the longterm health of
> > Mandrake and Linux...
> >
> I think they are working on it. And there is a lot moving on it. So I
> can't understand your angry and flaming kind of speaking. And to say you
> will not respond to flaming while you for yourself are doing so I really
> dislike.
What I posted as a wake-up call, constructive criticism, and yes some
irritation, you saw as a flame... oh well... I didn't see flames coming
back or anyone else calling my post a flame... each person sees things as
they want...
>
> > That's my position today -- flames will be ignored. Hoping for a MUCH
> > more useful, reliable and stable 9.1
> >
> Should be a short way in my experience on mandrake 9.0. And yes I hope
> the 9.1 release will be so rockstable as the current release is.
If 9.1 stability is similar to 9.0, then that will be very sad IMO.
> > Pierre (not sure if I'm happy or sad to see 9.1beta1 available at
> > this time...)
>
> Hopefully there will be a loooong betaphase to kill all bugs in the
> betas.
and if it's loooong, some ISOs that some non-cooker regulars to hammer on
would be helpful...
> Greets
>
> Steffen
Pierre
