Hi Julien!
You write:
�I don't have to imagine anything. There's a market price for labour which
reacts to supply and demand and thus to macroeconomic policies.When
Greenspan says that he doesn't want wages to go higher, he has the means to
do what he says. There's also labour laws. And there's obviously trade
unions.
What's your problem with that?�
None whatsoever. Julien, I was saying all along that you were correct in
your argument to (Tony?) that wages don�t necessarily rise! BTW, how much
longer do you think that system will hold? When we can discuss influencing
factors beyond macroeconomics, we can return to this.
Re: >Some DO have ideas and
figures,
>Julien. ... or at least they are implied
you respond:
��.. Sorry, but I don't understand the connection.�
Yes, obviously. I should have been clearer. The figures in Sam Pawlett�s
China posts seem to buttress my position, but it still requires digging. The
point STILL is that figures are available to you, when you seemed to imply
they weren�t.
�But please, throw the classics at me. I'd be interested to see how they say
that wages are a function of ressource consumption.�
Start with Bentham and Ricardo on the necessity of expansion of the British
Empire in order to avoid resource depletion in the Midlands. If we both
agree that wages are a consumption of resources, then these guys will make
sense to you.
�There are really MANY ways. � Ban car from our cities�.Eco-taxes. �Passing
of a UN resolution�implementing it with spare cruise missiles � Banning
advertising ��
Yes, yes, we can ALL propose programs. EYE like the idea of adjusting prices
to reflect true environmental costs. When we step away from our fantasy
game, however, I am still asking the same question: Can you please describe
the mechanism that installs these solutions in our societies?
�There are real-world examples of countries with different
consumptions for the same living standards. Do you deny that?�
No, I think we agree. What is your point? I missed it.
�I've no global solution and I'm not even sure that a global
solution would be
desirable.�
Yet it is a global crisis �. hmmmmm.
� So I'll stay at a hopelessly national level.I'll be very old fashioned:
Electoral victories, general strikes, etc. (recipe
doesn't apply to all countries). That would not end the whole
madness, but that would take us away from capitalism as we know it (at
least). Now, I know this is currently unrealistic but from the beginning of
this thread we've been talking fantasies.�
Yet your last response to me featured alternatives installed in a year and
removal of the �flavour of capitalism� before �the big crisis.� You might
possibly perceive my difficulty in following your multi-pathed approaches.
Forgive me.
�Is there a misunderstanding? I was talking of actual economic
value, not about the insane ones that are expressed in current prices.
Marxist theory recognizes that there's a difference between values and
market prices (or at least I was thinking so, but Mark who knows better said
that there was no transformation problem).�
Yes there are misunderstandings. 1) �actual economic value� as you use it is
a limiting factor, not an encompassing one. Until economic value includes
the true cost to the planet of resource consumption, you guys cannot have
access to the word �actual�. 2)As Mark ONCE said, Marxist theory has had to
be convoluted and streched beyond recognition to even begin to address the
issue. (This is an old argument between you and me. When I see some evidence
that the Marxist discussion is anything more than a trip down memory lane, I
will pay more attention.)
�Driving prices closer to actual values is not extremely hard for
most states, as long as it's recognized that thoses values must be
arbitrarily decided. I don't deny any possibility of applying "real" values,
but that would be a lot harder.�
Yes, that indeed speaks to the point I raised above. If you have just been
arguing inapplicable old dead Marxist theory in a vacuum of fantasy, well
then I am prepared to totally agree with your propositions. If you intend on
using those theories to act in the �real� world, ... well �. I am still
looking for the mechanism that makes them relevant before the Crash
readjusts our priorities.
�Sorry to insist, but there is not a unified market including
China and Switzerland.�
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck �. I am
sorry Julien, but the Marxist position cannot have it both ways. If it is to
be claimed � as it has by some here recently � that socialist economics was
a deliberate construction tool of global capitalism, and that there is some
vast capitalist worldwide conspiracy to do evil to the workers (and there
is), then you cannot insert the disclaimer that there is not a de facto
�unified market�.
�Can you be clearer about your figure? You're not talking about
food consumption are you? Obviously they are different patterns of
gross consumption both intra-nationaly and internationally.�
I think it was on [bottleneck] a while back that someone quoted the average
consumption patterns for rich first world citizens. A baby born in the the
US or Europe consumes the earth�s resources at 13 times the rate of a baby
born in the �average� third world. If you wish to diminish consumption of
ANY resource, eliminating one American (something dear to your heart, I
guess <g>) is the equivalent of eliminating 13 Ethiopians.
�As to the plan, I think it's our job to leave them alone and
their job to find their plan. Their plan will have to include getting rid of
most if not all governments in that aera of the world.�
Yes. And that is the current prescription for sliding into the abyss. Their
plan(s) will be too little too late. Think harder.
�Not realistic, but the problem is serious enough without those parasites
who love to wage wars.�
I agree entirely (truly)! Care to suggest a system that avoids them?
Tom
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