Writes Carrol about "value":
In the sense it is a useful word in understanding history, and
thus in understanding ourselves and our condition, it names
a social relationship that came into existence with capitalism
(though it has some shadowy existence in some pre-capitalist
formations). It is a technical term in political economy, not
a vague word which means "something good."
Writes Mark:
>What matters from the point of view of the crisis of capitalism
> and the dynamics of the Crash, is the interplay of market recessions,
> booms and slumps, with the availability at any given time of finite
> resources, eg fossil fuels.
Writes Tom:
I'm gonna try to ignore the flames from CC -- I was a bit snappy m'self --
and try to move us a bit closer to some consensus ...
I have given up much hope that I personally can communicate in marxian
language well enough to discuss the finer points in a way that grants me a
fair hearing. At different times Tony, Tahir, Carrol, Mac, Mark and others
have adequately demonstrated to me my inability to break through the
barriers and biases I hold and they hold in a way that is constructive. (It
seems I am constantly setting off antagonistic tripwires even when I try NOT
to "flame." Mea maxima culpa.)
Is the idea of nature contributing value (or wealth .. whatever small
distinction that affords you all, it honestly seems like hair splitting) is
anathema to those who hold marxist positions? What value, then, is marxism
to a discussion of the Crash? In the few months that I have been trying to
understand the marxist position thoprugh those on the crashlist, I have not
seen a marxist theory put forward that addresses the fundamental problem of
the environmental crisis, or even the oil crunch. (This may have happened, I
am not always aware of the subtlties that go back and forth via marxist
jargon, forgive me if I missed it. I am honestly looking. Proof: ... I'm
still here on the list.)
Just because MY inability to frame the problem in an acceptable way is so
obvious does NOT mean that the very real problems of environmental collapse
and the plunder of the biosystem by global economic activity are going to
go away ... or slink off as if those problems have lost some grand debate
with marxism. Does anyone not see that clearly? If Tony steps outside the
class rhetoric to make common sense --and truthful -- observations about the
nature of the threat to the planet, calling him a heritic does NOT make the
problem disappear. Anyone not see that either?
Whether it is using the word "value" or speaking about "immigration" or
WHATEVER, I find it disheartening that the list seems to quibble endlessly
about the meaning of words and what is or is not an acceptable
interpretation of the marxist ideology.
I genuinely welcome being set in my place based upon something other than
calling me an asshole or stupid, or flaming Tony because he speaks the truth
about the nature of the rape of the ecosystem. I welcome some constructive
discussion as to what marxist thought or theory has to say about confronting
the envrionmental issues or even just one part of it : the oil crisis.
Does marxist theory have ANYTHING to say about the "dynamics of the Crash",
as Mark puts it?
Does marxist thought offer us any constructive avenues to approach either
understanding the crash or acting in some way to ameliorate what most of us
see as a world-wide catastrophe?
Is there anything marxism has to teach us about what mark terms the current
looming "crisis of capitalism"?
...Or are we to face endless rounds of word games and correction after
correction of post after post about "value"? ( I dimply percieve that
Ricardo contradicted Marx, and therefore "value" is somehow a hot button for
you guys. Unfortunately some of Ricardo's beyond-the-pale insights are
bearing terrible fruit.)
Outside marxist discussion Hardin, Hanson (and Hawking in the NY Times)
Ehrlich, even HENwood at least speak to the issue of the crash, with some
expertise. So do hundreds of others. Not all of them are stupid assholes and
eventually you are going to have to deal with their arguments, (I hope.)
C'mon marxists ... put up or shut up.
Tom
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