Mark,
>On Pen-L recently (in fact, on
>Pen-L forever) they debated whether or not 'forces of nature' can add
>'value' (eg whether windmills add 'value' to flour, which then accrues
>to the owner as 'rent').
As you present it, and as far as exchange-values are concerned, their
argument is indeed bizarre.
But are you saying that scarcities have no role in the determination of
exchange-values?
>For example, if the economy crashes next year, in part because of high
>oil prices this year, then oil prices might also collapse again;
>economists will say this proves there is no energy crisis, no shrtage
>of oil!
This is bad economics obviously. These are empty words. What's an energy
crisis, a shortage, etc.? Economics are not limited to that. Saner economics
would for example say there's a shortage of oil every time oil producers are
making big profits. But anyway the real issue is that the actual demand is
unrelated to the production and distribution process. Saying otherwise (our
shelves are plentiful and thus we have no shortages) is silly cold war stuff
ignoring the fact that not everyone's demand is solvable.
>Energy is material wealth. But it only acquires economic value when it
>is produced, ie when human-labour time is applied to make it available
>(marketable).
Of course. No value without labour (and without humans to judge it). Going from
that to value beign ONLY labour is quite a leap!
>Market prices fluctuate around real
>values, and are determined by the vagaries of supply and demand.
No. And supply and demand are not only vagaries BTW. The whole "thing" is
far from beign mechanic. But we're both opinionating here, apparently
separated by a huge chasm made of old theories.
>As oil becomes more difficult to extract and scarcer, its value
>increases *because the necessary labour-time required to pump it
>increases*.
It would be so *if any capitalist could declare any unoccupied field his and drill
it*. But capitalists must pay for that and pass down that cost. There are others
but less central issues. Earth is not the entrepreneurs' wonderland, Mark!
>... hidden
>subsidies (for example, the US 5th and 7th Fleets ...
So even you recognize that there's other factors than labor-time in the average
price of oil. So stop this simplistic marxian stuff.
>Note that TECHNOLOGY
>IMPROVEMENTS ONLY HASTEN THE CRASH. THEY DO NOT AVERT
>IT.
You're generalizing.
>To substitute for their abysmal ignorance of the real issues,
>they engage instead in religious hairsplitting debates about 'value'
>and 'wealth' and the 'contribution' of 'nature'. It is an utter waste
>of time and I want none of it here.
Cool down! We already heard that before anyway.
It's OK to say "I don't want this rubbish" only as long as you didn't bring forward
your own rubbish first. Who do you think you are to be so much more clever
than the others?
Julien
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