>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/17/00 10:22AM >>>
>From: "Charles Brown"
>At what point in history do you place the origin of the ideas of control
>over nature ,
I heard Naess say in an interview that this developed "at the time man met
agriculture, about 12000 years ago." Quinn puts it at around 10,000 years
ago, when a particular kind of agricultural practice began. Most of us
"ecos" accept that the ideas are tied to the beginnings of agriculture. Some
"ecos" tie the illusion of control to a shift away from animist sprituality
toward more exploitive religious organization which seeks to control "the
gods." They surmise reinforcement of this religious notion came from
sedentary agriculture which provided time to build cities with walls and
support armies which could require neighbors to accept the idea.
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CB: This puts it in the same "ball park" as the origin of class exploitative society.
So, marxists and D.E.'s are talking about something of the same thing.
Of course, I am going to say the root problem is a mentality of controlling other
people, and you will say that the controlling of nature came first. But some control
of a small part of nature, that part on which people depended, is hard to criticize.
((((((((((
>at what time early is the human culture building to which you refer ?
I was *referring* to Marx's notions of "primitive people", but am fast
looking up Engles for readjustment. <g> My own bias is for Quinn's scenario.
This is pretty subjective stuff, unless we can get general agreement of
when "civilization" began. Big neolithic tribal compounds? Gilgamesh and
mudwalled cities in the fertile crescent? Egypt? Bronze Greece? ... Azteca?
depends upon your frame of reference.
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CB: There is a lot of objective evidence to base it on in archaeology. The state and
private property probably start 6-7,000 years ago in Mesopotamia and Egypt.
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>Are you saying there were human culture builders who didn't have a control
>of nature idea , and then things changed ?
Most Ecos are saying that it went like this: organized agriculture --->
increased efficacy of the idea of control ---> "culture".
EYE think that the idea of control began with Neanderthal and the earliest
shamans. ... And that we will relinquish this illusion of control only with
our extinction. Fortunately we don't have to give it all up, just rethink
our ideas of what is *appropriate* control, and what is not. Put biocentric
understanding in place to temper our anthropocentric desires. (This is a
hedge and I am not well liked for it, admittedly. <g>)
(((((((((((
CB: We go : agriculture and domesticated animals —----> surpluses are produced
—-----------> predominantly mental laborers live off of the surplus and become a
division of labor , specialized class —---------> some pred. mental laborers start to
take advantage of that and form an exploiting ruling class.
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