From: "bon moun"
>Capitalism doesn't have "issues" to be fixed.
I misspoke. What I meant is: to alter (fix) what you term "the mandates of
capitalism". (I said this with a big fantasy IFFF pasted subconsiously in
front of my words.)i.e. If capitalism disappeared today, I contend that
whatEVER replaced it would still be foolishly victimizing the ecosphere
until we give up this thing we now both understand as the term "illusion of
control."
>The ecoshpere is incapable of
>taking conscious action on its own behalf. No doubt we live in the
>material
>world--a central tenet--and that the ecoshpere is a key part of it, the
>physical context of our fomrs of life.
Nah. I argue that the ecosphere IS capable of taking action on its behalf,
and as a matter of fact it's built in to the planetary system, and requires
no consciousness. (for lack of a better expression I suggest that the
mechanism of this capability be called "evolution". One of Mark's last few
posts gave a pretty good picture of how it confounds opposition.) Not enough
homage is paid to the profound peril, or even the recognition of "the
physical context of our forms of life." I guess I also am arguing that in a
pissing contest over the concepts and philosophy of historical materialism
and "evolution" then "evolution" will kick ass regardless of your beliefs
to the contrary. And I don't see much cognizance of that in marxism's
supporters.
>What we are saying is that there is NO chance of slowing, reversing,
>ameiliorating, attenuating THE problem as long as our actions as a society
>are determined by the mandates of capitalism--which is a system that can
>not-by its very nature-stop doing the damage we decry here. Either
>capitalism goes, or the ecosystem continues in the same direction. Dumping
>capitalism doesn't guarantee we will do anything to save (and if humans
>don't save it, who or what can? God? Gaia?) what's left, but retaining
>capitalism will guarantee that we catagorically can not.
Okay. I got that. I got it a while back. I just ain't willing to accept it
and I got my reasons, "evolution" for one.
If what you say holds true, then we can only look forward to a total
environmental crash --we helpless bystanders. This is the position I think
you, Stan; me; Mark; and Tahir see as the most likely outcome, however.
[sigh].
It seems like we keep returning to this home plate after every cycle. At
least THIS time we did so with a minimum of vitriol and we achieved some
common ground; I think that's progress.
Here is what I propose to do, what with the holiday rapidly approaching:
Instead of posting much more on these threads, I'm going to the woodshed
*again* and see if I can reconcile my viewpoint with those of historical
materialism -- by reading you guys's philosophy and literature (*again*
<g>). Any URLs forwarded to me offlist will be gratefully accepted.
If anybody wants to continue this "conversation" with me after that, please
do me the courtesy of reading a bit of MY philosophy and literature: Naess
and Sessions, Quinn, Brower, Cohen, Hardin or even Sahtoris. (It won't kill
you.) I know how frustrated I make you when I misapprehend your concepts and
terms; imagine how difficult I find it to transmit rather esoteric but
settled concepts from obscure literature to opponents predisposed to doubt
overmuch because of unfamiliarity. (You awake Carrol?) Especially when as a
poor communicator I have to do it in hurried, rustic shorthand. If you need
some URLs, just ask.
thanks,
... and 10-4, good buddy ...
Tom
"We are usually convinced more easily by reasons we have found ourselves
than by those which have occurred to others." ---Blaise Pascal
"If everywhere the survival of "just one more" species continues to be held
in balance with some local economic advantage, we'll have more and more of
what we already had. Conservation of biodiversity is in the interests of
everyone." -- Julien Pierrehumbert
"The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes
along." -- Mark Twain
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